What Are You Doing Right Now? (367 Viewers)

[Seven]

Here you're saying that this is actually happening as opposed to this being the perception of the general populace which in turn makes it politically suicidal. That is a big claim to make to be honest; what percentage of the total population are they? I mean I really doubt such a small percentage would have as pronounced an effect on Sweden's economy, democracy or "the base on which Sweden is built on" as you put it.

In the other thread I agreed with the point I thought you were making; that the voters perception is almost if not more important than actual facts in today's post truth societies, and that ignoring that is akin to political suicide for the political establishment. If I haven't misunderstood you, you're saying something very different here.

I can't talk for Sweden as I've never been there, but I feel you might be underestimating the percentage of the total population. There's also the fact that refugees are a huge drain on resources, because they need a hell of a lot and give nothing (I understand the reasons why, but this is an unfortunate fact).

And then there's the 3d and 4th generation immigrants. Walk around in downtown Antwerp and you have neighbourhoods where people of Moroccan descent make up the majority of the population. There isn't necessarily something wrong with that, but it is problematic, because a vast number of those Moroccans have not really integrated well (for all sorts of reasons).

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[lgorTudor]

I never know when you're serious and when you're being sarcastic. But if we are going to go down that road, you do have to know that your heritage is Eastern European, you guys aren't exactly known mostly for being doctors and engineers.

wrong, actually

Majority of 1st gen slav immigrants have universitiy degrees and work blue collar or clerk jobs because their degrees haven't been acknowledged in that form. It's unnacceptable for slav migrant parents that their kids don't attend university. You get banished from your family if you choose not it. Slavs are like asian immigrants in many ways, mainly that they are grateful for leaving their shithole country while most arabs, turks and africans want to abuse their host country and establish the shithole back again. Multiple studies have shown the Poles and Russians are the best integrated immigrants in Germany while arabs and southern europeans reject education and form an alien body in the society.

 

[Fred]

I can't talk for Sweden as I've never been there, but I feel you might be underestimating the percentage of the total population. There's also the fact that refugees are a huge drain on resources, because they need a hell of a lot and give nothing (I understand the reasons why, but this is an unfortunate fact).

And then there's the 3d and 4th generation immigrants. Walk around in downtown Antwerp and you have neighbourhoods where people of Moroccan descent make up the majority of the population. There isn't necessarily something wrong with that, but it is problematic, because a vast number of those Moroccans have not really integrated well (for all sorts of reasons).

I get all of that, and I agree with the general sentiment. I actually admire western european countries for taking in so many refugees, and wish that some of the more well off arab countries would do their fair share. The parts where I'd really like to know if they are actually based on fact is that they are a huge drain on resources(are they really a bigger drain than other factors such as ageing populations for example) and that they(refugees not immigrants) constitute a significant portion of the population.

- - - Updated - - -

wrong, actually

Majority of 1st gen slav immigrants have universitiy degrees and work blue collar or clerk jobs because their degrees haven't been acknowledged in that form. It's unnacceptable for slav migrant parents that their kids don't attend university. You get banished from your family if you choose not it. Slavs are like asian immigrants in many ways, mainly that they are grateful for leaving their shithole country while most arabs, turks and africans want to abuse their host country and establish the shithole back again. Multiple studies have shown the Poles and Russians are the best integrated immigrants in Germany while arabs and southern europeans reject education and form an alien body in the society.

Most of your post is nothing but stereotyping, you attach positive stereotypes to Eastern Europeans and negative ones to Middle Easterners. You also base your stereotypes on your experience with Arabs in Germany. If i were to go down that cheap, non academic, non fact based route. I can tell you that the stereotype of Eastern Europeans here is that the main export from there is prostitutes for Dubai's nightlife.

Studies show that educational attainment if thats what you're talking about has more to do with socioeconomic factors than ethnicity if we are going to be serious about this.

 

[lgorTudor]

has more to do with socioeconomic factors than ethnicity

a bloo bloo

Aaaand there go the umbrella terms. What's the socioeconomic word for buying yourself a new car rather than private lessons for your kid?

 

[Fred]

a bloo bloo

Aaaand there go the umbrella terms. What's the socioeconomic word for buying yourself a new car rather than private lessons for your kid?

It seems to me that you yourself don't seem to have much educational attainment.

What statistics or studies do you have that show that Arabs generally buy themselves new cars rather than private lessons for their kids, especially relative to Eastern European immigrants? Because all I have seen from you so far, are your own prejudices and biased experience.

Are you saying that ethnicity has a stronger correlation with educational attainment levels than socioeconomic factors such as household income level, educational attainment of parents, etc?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It seems to me that you yourself don't seem to have much educational attainment.

What statistics or studies do you have that show that Arabs generally buy themselves new cars rather than private lessons for their kids, especially relative to Eastern European immigrants? Because all I have seen from you so far, are your own prejudices and biased experience.

Are you saying that ethnicity has a stronger correlation with educational attainment levels than socioeconomic factors such as household income level, educational attainment of parents, etc?

Not ethnicity, culture, though those 2 are often conflated

 

[Fred]

Not ethnicity, culture, though those 2 are often conflated

I would tend to agree that culture plays a huge role in success and educational attainment, but there are two points here; first that culture is abstract, its much harder to study its effects than other more "visible" factors, and the second point is, even within a culture socioeconomic factors reign supreme, I'm sure if you look at educational attainment levels of blacks in America for example you'll find huge differences between those who grew up in middle class households whose parents were university graduates and between those who grew up in low income households and whose parents are not university graduates.

Also in the context of this childish argument I'm having with Igor, even if we are talking about culture, I very much doubt Eastern European culture is any better than Arab culture in terms of focus on education, success and other things. He is lucky to have immigrated to Western Europe, he looks a lot more like the native population there so its easier for him to feel a sense of false superiority over his browner immigrant counterparts when really his people really aren't better at anything. That's my pseudo psychology for today!

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I would tend to agree that culture plays a huge role in success and educational attainment, but there are two points here; first that culture is abstract, its much harder to study its effects than other more "visible" factors, and the second point is, even within a culture socioeconomic factors reign supreme, I'm sure if you look at educational attainment levels of blacks in America for example you'll find huge differences between those who grew up in middle class households whose parents were university graduates and between those who grew up in low income households and whose parents are not university graduates.

Also in the context of this childish argument I'm having with Igor, even if we are talking about culture, I very much doubt Eastern European culture is any better than Arab culture in terms of focus on education, success and other things. He is lucky to have immigrated to Western Europe, he looks a lot more like the native population there so its easier for him to feel a sense of false superiority over his browner immigrant counterparts when really his people really aren't better at anything. That's my pseudo psychology for today!

Yes obviously anything to do with the human brain is quite abstract, but the exerpt i provided is backed up by historical evidence of certain cultures thriving no matter where they go and the hardships put in place to keep them down. Secondly, sowell is black but would you say he epitomizes black culture, obviously not, that's why the distinction between ethnicity and culture is made, you don't need to be rich or white, you just need the right culture.

 

[Maddy]

Here you're saying that this is actually happening as opposed to this being the perception of the general populace which in turn makes it politically suicidal. That is a big claim to make to be honest; what percentage of the total population are they? I mean I really doubt such a small percentage would have as pronounced an effect on Sweden's economy, democracy or "the base on which Sweden is built on" as you put it.

In the other thread I agreed with the point I thought you were making; that the voters perception is almost if not more important than actual facts in today's post truth societies, and that ignoring that is akin to political suicide for the political establishment. If I haven't misunderstood you, you're saying something very different here.

There have been written countless articles and reports on the matter. So I won't bother going too much in depth, and it's soemthing that is visible throughout Europe: UK, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and so on. Sweden is slowly but surely tearing apart between "old" and "new" - the general election in september will the biggest indicator when the Sweden Democrats gets ~30% of the vote (that is extreme in Sweden).

https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/05/18/sweden-is-trying-to-turn-people-swedish

https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/06/08/immigration-is-changing-the-swedish-welfare-state

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/violent-crime-in-sweden-is-soaring-when-will-politicians-act/

And there's seven more out there if you google parallel societies, integration problems, crime rates etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Also in the context of this childish argument I'm having with Igor, even if we are talking about culture, I very much doubt Eastern European culture is any better than Arab culture in terms of focus on education, success and other things. He is lucky to have immigrated to Western Europe, he looks a lot more like the native population there so its easier for him to feel a sense of false superiority over his browner immigrant counterparts when really his people really aren't better at anything. That's my pseudo psychology for today!

A "guest culture" with more similarities to the "host culture" will have be easier to integrate into society.

That is why Somalis, Libanese (palestinians), etc. hit rock bottom in Denmark - and that is after excluding social economic factors.

There are no longer anyone (apart from very few) that denies that conservative islamic and patriarchal cultures are impossible to integrate in "old europe". It's either assimilation or parallel societies.

 

[Fred]

There have been written countless articles and reports on the matter. So I won't bother going too much in depth, and it's soemthing that is visible throughout Europe: UK, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and so on. Sweden is slowly but surely tearing apart between "old" and "new" - the general election in september will the biggest indicator when the Sweden Democrats gets ~30% of the vote (that is extreme in Sweden).

https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/05/18/sweden-is-trying-to-turn-people-swedish

https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/06/08/immigration-is-changing-the-swedish-welfare-state

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/violent-crime-in-sweden-is-soaring-when-will-politicians-act/

And there's seven more out there if you google parallel societies, integration problems, crime rates etc.

- - - Updated - - -



A "guest culture" with more similarities to the "host culture" will have be easier to integrate into society.

That is why Somalis, Libanese (palestinians), etc. hit rock bottom in Denmark - and that is after excluding social economic factors.

There are no longer anyone (apart from very few) that denies that conservative islamic and patriarchal cultures are impossible to integrate in "old europe". It's either assimilation or parallel societies.

Btw, what I disagreed with in your initial post wasn't the parallel societies and integration problems? It was the statement that refugees in Sweden are destroying the base that the country is built on; I thought you were definitely overstating the effect of such a small portion of the population there. The second was that they were a drain on the state's resources? I'd really like to see if there are any facts and statistics that back this up.

But I agree and empathize with the general sentiment about parallel societies, I've been to France, Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium where that is apparent by just going to some of these places. A big part of the problem is geographic proximity and the low cost of immigration relatively, this attracts a mass of uneducated immigrants from countries like Morocco, Algeria, Somalia and Tunisia. I can understand why the perception of the general populace would be that these people cause a strain on resources, an increase in crime rates etc, but I strongly doubt that is backed up by reliable statistics.

By the way, the Specator looks to me like the UK/European version of Breitbart; in fact Bannon actually has a featured article there. The article there is nothing but anecdotal references to crimes committed in immigrant populated neighborhoods. Nothing of substance at all IMO.

 

[Seven]

Btw, what I disagreed with in your initial post wasn't the parallel societies and integration problems? It was the statement that refugees in Sweden are destroying the base that the country is built on; I thought you were definitely overstating the effect of such a small portion of the population there. The second was that they were a drain on the state's resources? I'd really like to see if there are any facts and statistics that back this up.

But I agree and empathize with the general sentiment about parallel societies, I've been to France, Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium where that is apparent by just going to some of these places. A big part of the problem is geographic proximity and the low cost of immigration relatively, this attracts a mass of uneducated immigrants from countries like Morocco, Algeria, Somalia and Tunisia. I can understand why the perception of the general populace would be that these people cause a strain on resources, an increase in crime rates etc, but I strongly doubt that is backed up by reliable statistics.

By the way, the Specator looks to me like the UK/European version of Breitbart; in fact Bannon actually has a featured article there. The article there is nothing but anecdotal references to crimes committed in immigrant populated neighborhoods. Nothing of substance at all IMO.

I have to say I'd be incredibly surprised if this wasn't the case. That would mean my eyes deceive me every day.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I have to say I'd be incredibly surprised if this wasn't the case. That would mean my eyes deceive me every day.

 

[X Æ A-12]

I never know when you're serious and when you're being sarcastic. But if we are going to go down that road, you do have to know that your heritage is Eastern European, you guys aren't exactly known mostly for being doctors and engineers.

::

 

[Maddy]

@Wittl

My weekend begins tonight, so here you have it.

 

[Wittl]

@Quetzalcoatl

- - - Updated - - -

Enjoy tho!

 

[Hængebøffer]

I have to say I'd be incredibly surprised if this wasn't the case. That would mean my eyes deceive me every day.

It’s actually very Well backed. I guess that’s why some people says statistics are racist.

 

[Maddy]

@Mark why u make me cry everytiem??

 

[Mark]

@Mark why u make me cry everytiem??

 

[s4tch]

it was supposed to be a fun thread :depressed

 

[Lapa]

Tapatalk advertises "Muslim Marriage Site" for me. Is this a sign?