UK Politics (14 Viewers)

[JuveJay]

It was such a shock to me how a nation, ANY nation would vote against independence. To this day, I don't understand how the Scots fucked up so bad.

Because you don't understand the intricacies of it and the unique political and cultural distinction of the United Kingdom.

There are people who feel only Scottish and want an independent Scotland. There are people who feel British above all. There are people who feel Scottish first and British second and want independence, there are those the same who want to remain part of the UK. It's not some hard border with Scottish people dressed like William Wallace on one side and English people dressed like the Royal Family on the other. I myself have Scottish and Welsh roots and so see myself as British before English (and Italian mixed in, to confuse things further). I feel very at home in Scotland and Wales and am very fond of both countries, it's only in a sporting sense where I see a rivalry. There will be and are Scottish people who feel the same way about England (believe it or not) or are very proud to be British. There is also the religious divide where I don't think it's unfair to say that the Catholic side are going to be more pro-independence than the Protestants.

 

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[Scottish]

It was such a shock to me how a nation, ANY nation would vote against independence. To this day, I don't understand how the Scots fucked up so bad.

It's complicated. The Monarch is the head of the protestant church, so many who were brought up in those traditions would never vote against the union. Those same people are often raised to be British rather than Scottish and so would have seen the referendum as splitting a single country in two rather than one country leaving a union.

There was of course economic uncertainty, as with any major change, and of course since 2014 things have gone mental worldwide. One key issue was EU membership, which is very important to Scots as a whole. We were told that Spain was likely to veto Scotland's application to the EU because it would give the Catalans ideas. Therefore the only way for Scotland to ensure it's place in the EU was to vote against independence.

In the end that's what we did, and England voted brexit and took us out anyway. Happy day.

 

[Elvin]

Because you don't understand the intricacies of it and the unique political and cultural distinction of the United Kingdom.

well, I think they regret it now, whatever their motivations were.

 

[Scottish]

Obviously there's more to it

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well, I think they regret it now, whatever their motivations were.

Some do, some don't.

Why not ask the Scottish people here instead of guessing, dude?

 

[Raphaël]

How is brexit going? In the pro-EU media in France, they say that it is a disaster and the British regret their choice. But objectively, is it really that bad? Can we draw such quick conclusions, knowing in addition the post-Brexit context with covid, and the war in Ukraine ?

 

[Elvin]

It's complicated. The Monarch is the head of the protestant church, so many who were brought up in those traditions would never vote against the union. Those same people are often raised to be British rather than Scottish and so would have seen the referendum as splitting a single country in two rather than one country leaving a union.

There was of course economic uncertainty, as with any major change, and of course since 2014 things have gone mental worldwide. One key issue was EU membership, which is very important to Scots as a whole. We were told that Spain was likely to veto Scotland's application to the EU because it would give the Catalans ideas. Therefore the only way for Scotland to ensure it's place in the EU was to vote against independence.

In the end that's what we did, and England voted brexit and took us out anyway. Happy day.

There is no such nation as British tho. It's like people calling us Soviets back then, it's not a fucking nation, it's an empire trying to eliminate the nationalities of its subjects. THAT's why they were 'raised British', Scots just lost their identity I guess.

 

[JuveJay]

@Scottish might want to review your agree as I made a huge edit lol

 

[Elvin]

Because you don't understand the intricacies of it and the unique political and cultural distinction of the United Kingdom.

There are people who feel only Scottish and want an independent Scotland. There are people who feel British above all. There are people who feel Scottish first and British second and want independence, there are those the same who want to remain part of the UK. It's not some hard border with Scottish people dressed like William Wallace on one side and English people dressed like the Royal Family on the other. I myself have Scottish and Welsh roots and so see myself as British before English (and Italian mixed in, to confuse things further). I feel very at home in Scotland and Wales and am very fond of both countries, it's only in a sporting sense where I see a rivalry. There will be and are Scottish people who feel the same way about England (believe it or not) or are very proud to be British. There is also the religious divide where I don't think it's unfair to say that the Catholic side are going to be more pro-independence than the Protestants.

I'm pretty sure you are in the minority and MOST Scots are just Scots without any English/Welsh/Irish in them.

 

[JuveJay]

There is no such nation as British tho. It's like people calling us Soviets back then, it's not a fucking nation, it's an empire trying to eliminate the nationalities of its subjects. THAT's why they were 'raised British', Scots just lost their identity I guess.

British history didn't start at the Norman invasion.

 

[JuveJay]

I'm pretty sure you are in the minority and MOST Scots are just Scots without any English/Welsh/Irish in them.

Keep guessing. Scots with no Irish blood, lol.

 

[Elvin]

I think the UK will collapse sooner or later and Ireland will unite.

 

[JuveJay]

You hope, you mean.

But I think it's likely at some point Ireland will be unified (might be decades away yet) as there is a Catholic majority there now. Then they can stand on their own feet being part of the EU.

 

[Elvin]

You hope, you mean.

But I think it's likely at some point Ireland will be unified (might be decades away yet) as there is a Catholic majority there now. Then they can stand on their own feet being part of the EU.

Can't believe religion still plays such a big part in people's lives. Damn, we're dumb.

 

[Boksic]

The problem is far too many people vote with "I feel British" or "I feel Scottish" and not with their head. I'm confident there are deep routed attitudes of anti english/British/monarchy which drive the push for independence for a lot of people, whether they want to admit it or not. I don't think it is ever a great idea to vote for such significant things on hatred orthe heart.

Personally I don't really feel my identity is really British or Scottish or have any strong religious feeling. But I think an independent Scotland would be a disaster and I am incredibly grateful that the majority of Scots voted against it.

The way the country has been run for the last 15 years or so and the difficulties of just transitioning out of the EU, nevermind our closest partner, back that up for me.

 

[Scottish]

@Scottish might want to review your agree as I made a huge edit lol

Dont disagree at all with what you said, I think you have it spot on

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I think the UK will collapse sooner or later and Ireland will unite.

This is what I want actually (though I wouldn't say 'collapse') but it's not going to be soon. Irish unification could happen in the next decade, but Scottish independence is a generation away at least by the looks of things now.

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Can't believe religion still plays such a big part in people's lives. Damn, we're dumb.

Honestly I don't think it really does. I think the catholic part @JuveJay was referring to is more like a broad brush to describe Irish republicans. The same divide exists in Scotland (most prominently in Glasgow) and honestly none of these cunts go to church anymore. It's an identity, a shared heritage rather than a current religious practice.

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The problem is far too many people vote with "I feel British" or "I feel Scottish" and not with their head. I'm confident there are deep routed attitudes of anti english/British/monarchy which drive the push for independence for a lot of people, whether they want to admit it or not. I don't think it is ever a great idea to vote for such significant things on hatred orthe heart.

Personally I don't really feel my identity is really British or Scottish or have any strong religious feeling. But I think an independent Scotland would be a disaster and I am incredibly grateful that the majority of Scots voted against it.

The way the country has been run for the last 15 years or so and the difficulties of just transitioning out of the EU, nevermind our closest partner, back that up for me.

Always glad to read your opinions on this topic (or anything, really tbh).

Agree that a lot of people vote on the side of their team. Sometimes literally, sometimes in the sense you mean. I feel like romanticised ideas of history are a huge part of our culture though and I'm not sure you could ever remove that from how most of us think.

The divorce from rUK would definitely be more complicated than Brexit has been, and though I'd like to think not, I think there would be as much bad-faith negotiation with Scotland leaving rUK as there has been with Brexit. I don't think we'd ever get an indy vote if the path into the EU wasn't laid out clearly. It's a huge sticking point.

IMO these referenda should have two votes. The first being an "In principle do you think X?" and then once the deal is negotiated, ironed out and all but signed it's put back to the electorate and the question then becomes "Now we know that this is the reality, do you want it or nah?". Indy's negotiation would have fallen into the same traps as Brexit, and I fear it would happen even with that hindsight. Also people would be more likely to vote for it in principle if they got a chance to patch it once they know the reality.

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I'm pretty sure you are in the minority and MOST Scots are just Scots without any English/Welsh/Irish in them.

Your view on it is hugely oversimplified. Why not ask the Scottish people on this forum instead of presenting your own inventions as facts? Me and Boksic or Red and Bozi if they ever come back.

There's been all sorts of mixing. For millenia. Most of us have at least an English or Irish granny. Three of my grandparents had Irish surnames, and one granny was born in London.

 

[Scottish]

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Entirely unserious policy which they have ended up having to back to the hilt.

Disastrous.

 

[Mokku]

London Mayor results came in today. Far right Britain First candidate Brian Scanlon got fewer votes than Count Binface. No joke, this guy got more votes.

 

[JuveJay]

Labour won the West Midlands Mayor as well. A guy called Richard Parker (no idea). All I can think of is:

 

[Fab Fragment]

What’s this Count Binface all about? I see that he is a satirical character

 

[Mokku]

What’s this Count Binface all about? I see that he is a satirical character

He's a satirical character, but usually gets 20K votes in the official voting. His policies include price capping croissants. It's hilarious that he trashes certain arrogant candidates.

https://www.countbinface.com/