Troy (10 Viewers)

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
I suck in history. I live in a sucky country. I blame that. Ha. ha.

I find that hard to believe...and what's wrong with your country? Seems quite nice from this part of the world

Ok now back to the adam issue - I didn't really understand your query to be honest. In Islam, Adam was our first prophet and Muhammad was the last. We had 25 prophets; but there were periods between 2 prophets where the word of Islam was forgotten I think, which resulted in the coming of another prophet to preach again.

What I was trying to find an answer to was...does Islam also believe Adam to be the first human? You've given me what I wanted...cheers sallyinzaghi

Right now, I'm reading some Romanista's comments on Capello leaving them. Enjoying it way too much

Go get them pal:fero:

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++


now that you see it from that perspective., i can see some logic in it.... as Sally said Islam have many prophets from different period of time... thousands of them actually , but 25 of them were the most famous and their stories were told in Al-Quran..you know..Adam, David, Noah, Moses, Jesus to name a few and Muhammad being the last of them..... from my understanding, the level of teachings for each prophet is different.... only one thing is similar that is all of them only succumb to one God...( thats include Jesus, as in our belive, he is not the son of god , but thats beside the point )..

anyway .. my point is... during those early times the islamic code maybe not as clear as the time of Muhammad... so basically you only need to succumb to one God, Allah, and there you are a muslim... so its doesnt cover much the lifestyle.... meaning muslim at those time maybe do not has as many code to follow as today....

my second theory is.. well.. he is done a lot of thing in his life including being a bi-sexual.. untill he met Islam and he left them...

...there is a prophet call Luth in arabic , who been sent to a homosexual society... where later God sent his wrath and destroy them all and turn their city up side down... i am wondering weather Alexander the great before his time or after his time....

Thanks for explaining in detail... Gives a whole different perspective to the story of Alexander

 

[sallyinzaghi]

I still haven't touched my Dzulkarnain and Alexander the Great books. I'm so lazy btw roverbhoy, I hear Alexander had some sort of companion / assistant or perhaps its an enemy (not sure) called darius? Is this true? If im not mistaken it's quite a similar thing to dzulkarnain too

 

[Roverbhoy]

Darius was King of Persia. He fought Alexander at the Battles' of Issus and Gaugamela, loosing both. I seem to remember that he was killed by his bodyguards whilst fleeing. I think Alexander killed those who killed Darius as he was still a King, and his men should have shown loyalty. I would need to look this up

 

[gray]

I'm curious to see the Islamic timeline of prophets, anyone got a simple timeline that shows the years in between each prophet and their names?

 

[Roverbhoy]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
I'm curious to see the Islamic timeline of prophets, anyone got a simple timeline that shows the years in between each prophet and their names?

This would also interest me

 

[aressandro10]

i never come across any writing that says accurately the time of each prophets.. maybe there are Islamic scholars out there who study it but i never came across it with such interest before... but i believe as timeline is concern they are not that much differs from the Christians or Jews... what if you lay Christians's prophet timeline and we can discuss it....

 

[aressandro10]

i cannot find the timeline but this is the names of Islamic prophets in Quranic names and Biblical names..
Qur'anic Name ......... Biblical Name

Adam...........................Adam

Idris.............................Enoch

Nuh..............................Noah

Hud ,......................... -----

Salih............................. Salih

Ibrahim ...................... Abraham

Isma'il......................... Ishmael

Ishaq.............................. Isaac

Lut .....................................Lot

Ya'qub........................... Jacob

Yusuf ............................ Joseph

Shu'aib.............................-----

Ayyub...............................Job

Musa................................Moses

Harun..............................Aaron

Dhu'l-kifl..........................Ezekiel

Dawud.............................David

Sulaiman..........................Solomon

Ilias...................................Elias

Al-Ya.................................Elisha

Yunus..............................Jonah

Zakariyya........................Zechariah

Yahya...............................John

'Isa....................................Jesus

Muhammad.........................-----


**************************



so can you guys work out the timeline?... could be useful for our Alexander the great discussion....

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by aressandro10 ] ++
you have read both Sejarah Melayu and Al-Quran?

Of course... How can you discuss the virtues of any religion if you havent read the writings of others.
Ive read as many religious writings as ive had time to... From christianity to islam, hinduism, buddhism etc through to even the satanic bible.

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
Paul reads everything Hafiz

But Paul, yes it is in our malay history, in my history textbook in fact that he IS alexander the great
(Iskandar Dzulkarnain); and in the Koran if I'm not mistaken, Sura Al Kahfi God only referred to him Iskandar
Dzulkarnain... I'm a bit confused, perhaps the theory that Iskandar was Alexander the Great was created by
those who interprets the Quran.. anyways I have to check back on you with that, I go for Quran Interpretation
classes and I'll ask my ustadz

but in the Quran god did mention that Iskandar was one of the world's best rulers and conquerer, so; I don't
know. Gosh I'm confused.

From either writing it is not clear that iskandar is indeed alexander... it is beleived to be.. there is no definate answer im afraid

but even if Iskandar IS alexander, that can't be possible, Iskandar is known as a
devout Muslim and Muslims can't be gay.

Alright, conclusion, I'll go ask my ustadz. I hope he has something to say on this matter.

Firstly alexander is a beleiver in the gods not any particular religion, most religions were not bourn at that time..
different religious writings jus suggest him to be of there own faith.
The world was very different then and what some find unacceptable today was the norm in those times.

Plus on the idea you cant be a devout muslim (or christian etc for that matter) because you are gay to me is complete nonsense.
There are many people that are gay but follow a strict religious life... they are no less a muslim or christian because of their sexuality.

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++

@Shadowfax.. there were a lot of writings about the Illiad.. some back up their opinions with some of Homer's
own words.. But, this german Prof..!! I never heard of him.. nor I read or felt these "bi-sexual" stuff in
Homer's work or other writings that wrote about the Illiad..

I find it strange that any follower of greek mythology hasnt heard of licht...
As i said previously that post was written purely to show some of the things written regharding achilles sexuality.
All of those things can be found in other excepted writings such as plato and even hinted upon strongly by homer himself.
It is also widely accepted as fact that a bi sexual way of llife was common place in anciant greece and many other civilisations of that time... it is / was perfectly normal.

As for your comments that homer never said such things... how would you know.
according to your quote in the other thread you havent even read the iliad

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++
I read the odyssey first..

I never finished the illiad.. well, never started reading it properly.. I read certain chapters..
skip some, re-read some.. :undecide:

The iliad is a work that deserves respect and cannot be understood by fleeting glances and the odd chapter...
either you have read it in full or you havent read it at all

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Muslims do not allow homosexuality Paul, that's why I thought if alexander was indeed dzulkarnain, and dzulkarnain is known for being a devout muslim, it should not happen, but like hafiz said this was a long time ago, where islam's teachings itself were there but not complete.

I'm reading a book on Gog and magog and how dzulkarnain restricted them, and darius the king of persia is mentioned. like you said I don't think there's a definite answer to this, sadly.

 

[aressandro10]

Gog and magog?... so Yakjud and Makjud also mentioned in other religion huh .

 

[aressandro10]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


Of course... How can you discuss the virtues of any religion if you havent read the writings of others.
Ive read as many religious writings as ive had time to... From christianity to islam, hinduism, buddhism etc through to even the satanic bible.

i can understand Al-Quran as it itself is a world famous literature... but Sejarah Melayu?.... i cant help but feel ethnically honoured

 

[Gandalf]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++

I find it strange that any follower of greek mythology hasnt heard of licht...
As i said previously that post was written purely to show some of the things written regharding achilles sexuality.
All of those things can be found in other excepted writings such as plato and even hinted upon strongly by homer himself.
It is also widely accepted as fact that a bi sexual way of llife was common place in anciant greece and many other civilisations of that time... it is / was perfectly normal.

I haven't heard of licht before.. mind you, I'm not very fond of reading articles or critics about the books that I read, though it would very much help me see extra dimentions that I might not notice by reading only the books .. However, I feel it will ruin my first impression about the author's point of view..

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++
As for your comments that homer never said such things... how would you know.
according to your quote in the other thread you havent even read the iliad

I read quite enough about Achilles and Patroclus that could at least give me a hint that they were lovers..

at that time, I was at college, and I borrowed the book to fill my free time in long breaks between classes.. :undecide:

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++

The iliad is a work that deserves respect and cannot be understood by fleeting glances and the odd chapter...
either you have read it in full or you havent read it at all

then, I haven't read it.. :frown: could you recommend a good translation for me..? I can't remember the name of the translator whom I read for..



P.S. your posts give me the feeling that you want to hit me with a stick or something.. did I offend you in some way..?

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Gandalf ] ++
then, I haven't read it.. :frown: could you recommend a good translation for me..? I can't remember the name of the translator whom I read for..

I wasnt having a dig... it jus is one of those books you have to read in full... you cannot truly grasp it unless you read and digest every page

Cant remember the one we studied from at uni... that was the best one ive read... i'll see if i can find out.

Otherwise the best version imo is the oxford world classics version translated by Robert Fitzgerald

P.S. your posts give me the feeling that you want to hit me with a stick or something.. did I offend you in some way..?

He he... jog on son... dont be so sensitive... no offence intended mate

 

[KB824]

Hey, I'M the only one that paul gets to beat with a stick.

Isn't that right, Stud??



BTW, I was at my local Hollywood Video on Saturday, and you'll never guess what movie they had in the New Release section.


Yep, Bubba Ho Tep.

Couldn't talk the wife into getting it though.

Although, since I DID take her to see The Day After Tomorrow , she owes me one.

 

[Gandalf]

hey.. every thread I go I ask this question and nobody answers me..

" what is the W.B.T.Y.A..? :wth: "

@shadowfax: thanx for the info, I think the one that I read at college was translated by Lattimore "spelling??" can't remember his first name.. maybe richard..

@serge: what's Bubba ho tep..?!!?

@saliha: I found some stuff about gog and magog.. but, I will post them later.. make it simple first..

 

[sallyinzaghi]

no hafiz, it isn't mentioned in other religions as far as I know, is just that I happen to have a book that focuses on gog and magog, and dzulkarnain is involved in that story

 

[aressandro10]

gog and magog is in what language Sally as in here i actually come across that term for the first time insted of Yakjud and Makjud..

actually there are told in other releigion as well.. well. christian at least.. i came across a site that told the storiy of Alexander the great and Gog and magog from different angles and stories.. pretty interesting

 

[Gandalf]

Gog and Magog (hebrew maybe ??) are Ya'jooj wa Ma'jooj (arabic)..

here, read carefully about what I found regarding Alexander, Dhu al Qarnayn and Gog and Magog..



The Quran alluded to Gog and Magog in Surah Al-Kahf[18];

"They said: "O Dhu al Qarnayn! The Gog and Magog people do great mischief on earth: Shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between them?...Bring me blocks of iron at length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountainsides, He said, `Blow with your bellows', then when he had made it red as fire, he said: `Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead.' thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it. he said this: `this is a mercy from my Lord: but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, he will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true. On that day we shall leave them to surge like waves on one another; the trumpet will be blown, and we shall collect them together. And we shall present hell that day for unbelievers to see, all spread out.'" (Al-Kahf[18]:94-100).

Heated controversies as to precise dates, peoples, and personalities seem to be evident when trying to research the Islamic writings concerning these passages.. Most Muslim scholars and commentators agree on the difficulty of interpreting these verses.. A great deal of literature has been piled up among Muslim writers, the most common interpretation of the person of "Dhu al-Qarnayn" has been Alexander the Great, since the name "Dhu al-Qarnayn" in Arabic means "The two horned".. Evidence from historical and archaeological accounts depict Alexander the Great with ram's horns on his head.. Although the name Alexander is not mentioned here, Muslim interpreters generally agree that these verses are speaking of him.. The problem with accepting Alexander the Great as the personality in these verses is that Alexander the Great is known in history as a pagan; he considered himself "The Son of Jupiter".


Another dilemma that faces the Muslims in accepting Alexander as "Dhu al-Qarnayn", is that Omar Ibn-Alkhattab, the second Khalifa of Islam, and a close friend of the prophet, in defending the Prophet, calls Dhu al-Qarnayn as "an angel".

(I personally not sure about the credability of the above :undecide: , maybe it's a translation confusion I may add)

This dilemma directed Muslim scholars to many other mixed, and different conclusions, all making a saint out of him, neglecting the historical fact of Alexander burning a Phoenician city when the people rejected him offering sacrifices to his pagan deities. He died an alcoholic and a pagan.



Concerning Mog and Magog, it is practically agreed among some Muslim scholars that Gog and Magog were wild tribes of Central Asia known as "Scythians", but the detail of the events of this prophecy are vaguely known..

Numerous assumptions have been made concerning the blocks of iron and the mountainsides.. a Muslim can read some of these in any commentary on the Quran, like Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary. Mr. Ali gets himself into a trap, when he concludes a fulfillment of this took place at the time of Alexander the Great. He gets into a debate with the different interpretations on several iron gates, assuming that the "blocks of iron" are gates he says; "The Abbasi Khalifa Wathiq (842-846 A.D) sent a mission to Central Asia to report on this Iron Gate... Nothing could correspond more exactly with the description in Surah 18:95-96)".

The trap Mr. Ali sets himself into is that when reviewing verses 98-100 above, one cannot escape the fact that the event will take place on Judgment day, since a trumpet will sound and Hell is presented. The conclusion that these verses are prophetic is beyond question. The reason Muslim scholars try to conclude this as fulfilled is obvious since Alexander the Great died long ago. Either "Dhu al-Qarnayn" (Double horned) is Alexander, Good Angel, or the Devil presents a problem that no serious scholar can deny..


as you noticed, the story of Mog and Magog was not fully explained in the Qur'an.. but I found some writings about their story in the bible that could be interesting, but I should talk to Gray or some christians to take their point of view on it..

 

[gray]

I'm not an expert on the subject of Gog and Magog, so I'll copy and paste from someone who knows more than me:

Gog is described as "Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). Ezekiel makes Gog sound like an individual. The description in Revelation makes Gog sound like a kingdom. This may be yet another example of using the word "king" to mean a "kingdom," as noted elsewhere. Gog is described in connection with the four corners of the world (represented by east, south, and west – Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya, verse 5), but especially the north: Gomer and Togarmah (verse 6).

Magog was the son of Japheth (Genesis 10:2), and his lands are the lands of the north. Gomer founded those the Greeks called Galatians. Magog was anciently identified with the Scythians. Meshech were the Cappadocians. (See Antiquities of the Jews, 1:6, 1) Tubal is apparently another tribe from the same region, and Togarmah was understood by the Jews to be the Turks, inhabitants of modern Turkey (Asia Minor).

The famous W. F. Albright stated that "Magog is a blend of Manda the regular Mesopotamian designation for northern barbarians and Gog the equivalent." In other words, Gog and Magog have exactly the same meaning as the word Keltoi, or Celt. Gog and Magog are the same barbarian northern tribes we have seen in the context of the "little horn."