++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++
ofcourse not, I was saying that IF lippi was still in charge WOULD he have brought along Emerson and Zlatan in our team? Just merely giving a point to baggio and yourself that u cant just rate that any coach would have done good with our team when the coaches are also responsible for actually creating a team in some respects.
I agree with u here that the coaches are responsible for creating a team and they have a large role on piching up the players,
but
i dont believe we could compete with inter two years ago and buy canna (one of the best defenders of the world, the second best italian), the point that he underperformed in inter is pointless, EVERYBODY underperformed in inter, the purhage of cannavaro secured our teams defence only by his name, if moggi could do it 2years ago, i m sure lippi would have accepted canna very pleased, i dont believe there was a serius coach in europe that would have choosen legro instead of canna.
I dont believe we had the chance to buy emerson from roma two years ago, as they were still competitive and wouldnt gave him away that easy, neither we could find with the money we bought maresca someone else worldclass player like emo.
++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++
I fail to see ur point about money, coz Lippi had the same amount at his disposal and I dont see why its relavant with what we are talking about
Its absolutely relevant, we never had the money, to buy great players,it doesnt means we didnt had the need too, i dont believe lippi wouldnt be pleased to buy 3world class players, one for every line, instead of 3talents.
Real Madrid is willing to spend 120mil this year, if they do better than this year, then it means that luxe did a wonderfull job?
++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++
Again my point was that the coaches pick who to bring in, so the thing about comparing the team of 2002/2003 and 22004/2005 cannot be without acknowledgeing that the coaches created them by picking the new players.
And about Di Vaio, I was saying that Lippi also made mistakes, like benching Di Vaio when he was REDHOT, and for who? for an average perhaps poor Del Piero (at the time). This leads to the case that Lippi even if he had brought a new striker would not have put him ahead of Del Piero no matter how good he was playing.
Lippi wasnt responsible for the departures of DV,maresca,miccolli,
juve had two stars on the attack, the faith on DP wasnt only lippi's fault, but it was the clubs policy, also lippi believed in DP cause he saw what he could do at his best days, lippi's heart is juventino, it will always be, he understand the people who love their symbol, he benched DP and many other young players to make them prooves they arent subbs but starters,
DV failed to be much better than DP, IMO, but DV was overall a better choice than DP many times, i was mad on lippi,he was wrong here, but his actions had some motives.Since the club intented to keep DP, DV sould proove he is as good as DP potential.Same goes for maresca and miccolli, the club had great expectations from them, they were good enough, but not world class, juve can find talents every year and juve is a club that risks and bring in new talents,if micolli and maresca prooved to be world class, as zidane,Dp ands davids prooved when they came, they wouldnt have left and not for fiorentina.its not lippi's fault they failed to be world class,noone can see the future and know how a player may develop,
they were promissing and good enough for us, in our eyes, but trust moggi knows more,anyway it wasnt lippi's choise that they left, he might had plans with them, esp if he is the one responsible to get them in the first place.
Capello is a coach wich prefers a strong,tall forward as a target man,
he was also wrong for benching delvecchio instead of montella, far greater mistake and difference for me, than the DV-DP mistake.(i never believed Delv had more talent than montella,but if DP managed to find his form back, then he would be better than DV)
On the other hand, the totti-cassano admirer probably hater of DP, always doubt his potential(a natural thing since his players were the direct opponents of him and DP was the symbol of traditional enemy)
Great Avocato isnt here to dictate DP sould be a starter anyway
and DP didnt had a title on his back when capello arrived.
So capello had the right to choose and the power to bench DP.
He would anyway choose a tall zlatan-delvecchio type of player istead of a montella-DP type of player,
thank God zlatan althought tall, is a very technician player and with more talent and potential than both DV and delvecchio.
++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++
Nobody is trying to reduce Lippi to zero or take anything away from his accomplishments, in fact I said Lippi has contribute more to Juventus than Capello ever will. Considering that Capello is strictly proffesional and probably leave at the end of his contract.
I just was disappointed that with the scudetto people are still not acknowledging the impact he has on the team.
Lippi's era ended because he was too long at the helm, his personal opinions interferred with logics, hence Del Piero's long run in the first team when his performances didnt merit it. If he were a better coach he would have stuck with Di Vaio as his performances were better for the team than DP's. Thats why Capello has been successful, he has played the players who deserve to play regard
He was great but like all things, too long time leading a team is not very good, you need something fresh to work on, and Lippi was here for a long time, now its time for this great coach to take on other challanges. New is also good for the team.
Ancelotti had much more time with milan,wenger and ferguson too,
big teams who want stability and dont like to be like inter, need to trust their coaches and keep them a long period of time for the good of the team,
because if a new coach comes every 3 years untill he will build something and start to make the necesary replacements,then another will come, with a new conception and he will choose to make other changes and then another and another, finally noone will never manage to create the team which has in his mind,
cause u cant change eleven players in a year,(unless if u have chelsea's or real's money, barca,milan and inter to follow)
Lippi loved our team, capello is a mercenary, traditionally enemy of juve,
he came in because he needed one more title for his trophies collection,
he will not hesitate to leave juve for Real next year if he prooves his name with another scud or even CL tittle, without careing what will happen to juve after this,i want to see u then to be around here, saying he is the best coach juve had last years.
++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++
Lippi had a lot of investment on the team too, what do you call buying Buffon, Thuram, Nedved.
You are comparing legro and canna right now, but if you had compared Legrotaglie of season 2002/2003 and canna of 2003/2004, many would have picked Legrotaglie, he was the Barzagli of today.
I am pointing this out just to say that u cant merely point that "ofcourse cap was success ful coz he had Canna, Lipi had Legro" While at the time of purchase of both, Legro was more potential and safe to sign than Canna. Canna was playing bad at Inter and many labelled him past it.
Just remember that the coaches have a huge vote on who to buy, that includes the purchases of Appiah, legro and Miccoli, which were all great buys but never manage to integrate in the team.
As for Miccoli, i think he would have been good with us but he wasnt given enough opportunities, and if Zlatan were treated the same way I dont think he would have been as influential.
Buffon, Thuram, Nedved was more of a swap for zidane,
but considering their age and the need of the team, u can call it the biggest investment juve did the last years,
only canna,emo and zlatan can compare with that but cant match it.
As i said earlier back then and now the team was in crisis,
big names were needed to come in and insure the future of team and the end of crisis, i consider it a normal thing to happen and i dont believe the coach is the one responsible for this, but the managers, the coach doesnt pay the bills, he cant decide when big transfers will take part,
if it was by his hand, he would probably ask the same every year, as capello did to roma, most of the teams cant handle this, neither juve can,
so indiferent the current coach, juve will never spend big every year, (unless our resources grow).
We did the changes as a club, because it was absolutely necesary the time being.
The team got stronger back then with those names as the team got stronger now too.The succes was a naturaly thing to come, with a great coach like lippi or capello or however of their level.
With ur point of view it was lippi's win, mine's dont.
As it isnt cap's now.
I believe, the win with big names is overrated,
try to do with Greece what Great Otto did,
with porto what Jose did,
try to beat juve with Pools material,
Real+milan with juve's material,
then u r a coach.
Ofcourse even if u have great material its some times very dif. to manage it
and cap is in the top5 of the world on this,
he can be a winner when he have the better material,
he prooved this(putting aside liverpool), even if this material are as problematic as totti and cassano might be,
but its not the case with juve,we most of the times luck the better material in our direct adversaries,we need someone who can do the dif with less material, this is a great chalenge,i hope cap will make it,
lippi did, cap is in a good way, but he didnt prooved that to me yet,
we hired him for a purpose(CL final tittle), i hope he will make it,
i m sure mistakes like the one with liverpool wont happen next year,
it was just because of the coach change(thats why i m against it),
lippi new our players cant beat an English team on the air,
why? because he tried that and failed, cap didnt, he now knows,
if he leave us a couple of years later, then deshamps might have to learn that too, got my point?
On the other hand about the big transfers;
i dont know if lippi choosed then, but who ever choosed, choosed very wise,
because those changes manage to keep us on top for many years,
the choises done know wont,
we need aditional big changes the year to come,
if this is ur way to judge a coach, then cap looses again!
Juve doesnt make additional big changes every year,
if capello manage to be in the CL final, win2 champiponships in3years,
with the same transfer policy juve had on lippi era,
then he can be compared with lippi.
Buy on AliExpress.com
). ofcourse not all praise should go to capello, but he was the main difference.
