"The right to choose your own religion" - by my brother (1 Viewer)

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
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Dec 10, 2004
29,281
#1
By N. Mahmood Ahmad

Recently Israel, the only liberal-democratic state in the Middle East, attempted to adopt legislation granting a minority of ultra-Orthodox rabbis the legal right to define who is Jewish. Alarmed at this sweeping move within Israel, many Jews who are not Orthodox - a category that includes most American Jews - were able to prevent immediate passage of the bill. In doing so, they won a temporary victory for millions of Conservative and Reformed Jews who would otherwise effectively be designated as non-Jewish by the Israeli state.


Governments have sought to impose such restrictions on individual religious identity throughout history. In 360 C.E., the Roman Empire issued the Edict of Thessalonica, making Nicene Christianity the only official religion. All other forms of Christianity were declared heresies, and anyone caught professing them would be punished by death. Since then, state control over religion has been the impetus for the wars of religion in Europe, the Inquisition in Spain, and closer to home, the burning of witches in Salem, Massachusetts.

About sixty years ago, the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, seeking to turn over a new leaf by guaranteeing that "everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion." Nevertheless, world governments still trample upon the right to declare oneself a member of a particular faith.

In the Muslim world in particular, the right to choose one's own religion is already being denied to millions. Even in purportedly democratic countries such as Malaysia and Pakistan, a minority of religious extremists are able to dictate matters of conscience. In 2007, the Malaysian Federal Court ruled that a woman who had converted from Islam to Christianity could not legally do so because as a member of the traditionally Muslim Malay ethnic group, she was constitutionally required to be a Muslim. Similarly, Article 260 of Pakistan's Constitution defines who is a "Muslim" and a "non-Muslim". In 1974, the Parliament approved a constitutional amendment specifically designating members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, as non-Muslims. The Pakistani Government has, in fact, mandated that anyone applying for a passport who declares himself a Muslim must swear that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, is an impostor and that his followers are non-Muslim. Constitutions are intended to limit the power of the state and guarantee basic freedoms - for example, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees free exercise and prohibits establishment. By contrast, the Malaysian and Pakistani Constitutions do precisely the opposite - they force a state-imposed faith upon their citizens, while also limiting free exercise of their own chosen creed.

Such legislation creates a culture of hatred, emboldening religious extremists to commit atrocities with impunity. In May, Pakistani Taliban slaughtered 86 Ahmadi Muslims in a coordinated attack on two of the Community's mosques in Lahore, Pakistan. Meanwhile, Article 260 and other laws remain, including Pakistan's notorious anti-blasphemy laws. Indeed, the trend in other countries, including Malaysia, and most recently Israel, is toward increased state control over individual religious identity. Israeli Jews are fortunate to have influential compatriots living in the United States, a country founded on the principles of religious freedom and remains the freest place in the world today. By contrast, the Muslim community in the United States has remained conspicuously silent on this issue. Notably, even in the wake of the attacks on Ahmadi Muslims, no Muslim organization spoke out against Pakistan's archaic laws.

It is high time that governments around the world live up to their obligations under the United Nations human rights charter, and get out of the business of dictating who may or may not call herself a Jew, Christian, or Muslim.

N. Mahmood Ahmad is a member of the Executive Board of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Lawyers Association USA. He is a lawyer based in Washington, D.C. and served on the Virginia Law Review editorial board.

-The Washington Post
 

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Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#6
Well he's right, state religion is idiotic, as if that needs clarification. You impose the delusions of some onto all.
 
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Zé Tahir

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
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Dec 10, 2004
29,281
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  • Thread Starter #7
    His main argument is that you can't let a certain group decide who is a Jew, a Christan, or Buddhist, etc.

    I liked this comment someone left:

    Thank you for this timely article. It's surprising to see that even some developed parts of the world these days have come back into the business of dictating people's faith and personal practices. This is what I'm reminded of by the French hijab-ban in high schools and the talk about banning the full burqah. Aside from some reference to security concerns, the thrust of the arguments in favor of such a ban is simply that, 'we consider it to be demeaning and hideous, so regardless of why a Muslim woman wears it, we want to ban it, because we know better. If a woman claims to wear it by choice, she's either being forced to say it or doesn't know any better and so we will decide for her." It's as if civilization has come full circle. This is exactly what the religious extremists in Pakistan do when saying, for instance, that members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are non-Muslims. They say that they are only paying lip service to the Islamic deceleration of faith and don't believe it in their heart.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #8
    No, that's complete bullshit. The French authorities are *not* claiming you're not a Muslim if you wear a burqa. They're saying whatever your religion commands you cannot wear a piece of clothing like the burqa, because French law is above your religion.

    And the reason law is above religion is precisely for the sake that one religion doesn't oppress another which you seem to support.

    Here's the hard truth: Just because you have a religion and you live in a state which grants religious freedom does *not* mean that anything you religion tells you to do you are free to do by law.
     
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    Zé Tahir

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
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    Dec 10, 2004
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  • Thread Starter #9
    I didn't mean to relate the two arguments if you took it that way. They're completely different. She has made a good point though.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #10
    I didn't mean to relate the two arguments if you took it that way. They're completely different. She has made a good point though.
    I don't see how, but then I know nothing about your situation in Pakistan.

    But you know what makes me really sad? I spent years on football forums reading the complaints of all kinds of people about how the world is not fair, the system is rigged, their club is oppressed and it's all set up so that Juve never stops winning. While I was skeptical, I gave these people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe there is something to that? So I talked to them a lot, I scrutinized their arguments. And while I didn't ever learn whether or not their allegations were true, I did learn something else. Something very sad. These people who were preaching justice were not interested in justice. All they really wanted (although they refused to admit to it) was for their club to rise to the top.

    Why I am telling you this, what does this have to do with political causes? Everything. People are not after justice in sports and they're not after justice in society. These people who are bleeding for the Palestinian cause, if you ask them what they propose to do with Israel they'll say "take away their government and let us rule them". In other words, reverse roles.

    It's always the oppressed who are crying for justice, but all they're doing (most of the time) is trying to win the upper hand in a power struggle.
     
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    Zé Tahir

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
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    Dec 10, 2004
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  • Thread Starter #11
    People who complain about Juve's current situation (i.e. 2006) weren't complaining before 2006 were they? It wasn't exactly like we were winning Serie A and Champions League every year so what "rise to the top" were they being deprived off? If anyone fits that description it's Inter.

    I can't speak for others but in the example you bring up I wouldn't want that at all. Matter of fact I have the sense to know that the state of Israel isn't going anywhere even if 'justice' is done and an appropriate solution for the Palestinians is found. I follow the example of The Holy Prophet and he would never approve of oppressing the 'other party'.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #12
    People who complain about Juve's current situation (i.e. 2006) weren't complaining before 2006 were they? It wasn't exactly like we were winning Serie A and Champions League every year so what "rise to the top" were they being deprived off? If anyone fits that description it's Inter.
    I'm talking about way before 2006.

    I can't speak for others but in the example you bring up I wouldn't want that at all. Matter of fact I have the sense to know that the state of Israel isn't going anywhere even if 'justice' is done and an appropriate solution for the Palestinians is found. I follow the example of The Holy Prophet and he would never approve of oppressing the 'other party'.
    That's not what I'm talking about, cynicism. I mean if you could actually dictate what is to happen, if you had the power, what would you decide. There was a poll on the forum asking whether the state of Israel should even have the right to exist at all. Lots and lots of people voted no. So if Israel doesn't have the right, why should anyone else? People were saying stuff like "Before 1945 there were lots of Jews living in Palestine and they had it good, we should go back to that." So if these people think it's acceptable for one nation to rule another, they should be okay with Israel annexing Palestine, shouldn't they?

    See my point?
     

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
    #14
    I'm talking about way before 2006.



    That's not what I'm talking about, cynicism. I mean if you could actually dictate what is to happen, if you had the power, what would you decide. There was a poll on the forum asking whether the state of Israel should even have the right to exist at all. Lots and lots of people voted no. So if Israel doesn't have the right, why should anyone else? People were saying stuff like "Before 1945 there were lots of Jews living in Palestine and they had it good, we should go back to that." So if these people think it's acceptable for one nation to rule another, they should be okay with Israel annexing Palestine, shouldn't they?

    See my point?
    Not lots of Jews lived in Palestine before 1945.
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    #15
    Ya, but its the logic of, if you steal something and enough time passes, you can consider it your legitimate right.
     

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
    #16
    Ya, but its the logic of, if you steal something and enough time passes, you can consider it your legitimate right.
    Who can specify the "enough" time?

    I feel the last posts should be moved to the other thread by the way.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #18
    Ya, but its the logic of, if you steal something and enough time passes, you can consider it your legitimate right.
    This is void of logic. If someone has the :gsol: "right" to claim a piece of land that currently belongs to noone, declaring himself ruler of the land to whose will all others must submit on that land, then anyone else has the "right" to take it from him by the same token.

    If your logic is "I found it first therefore I deserve to have it", my logic is gonna be "I deserve to have it because I'm stronger than you". One is no more convincing than the other.
     

    GordoDeCentral

    Diez
    Moderator
    Apr 14, 2005
    70,869
    #20
    This is void of logic. If someone has the :gsol: "right" to claim a piece of land that currently belongs to noone, declaring himself ruler of the land to whose will all others must submit on that land, then anyone else has the "right" to take it from him by the same token.

    If your logic is "I found it first therefore I deserve to have it", my logic is gonna be "I deserve to have it because I'm stronger than you". One is no more convincing than the other.

    thats very interesting, are you sure you want to stick with that kind of argument?
     

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