the "real Champions League" (1 Viewer)


the phoenix

Junior Member
Aug 8, 2002
92
#1
Arsene Wenger has called for a real Champions League where only the champions from each domestic league can participate which is pretty much how things were in the late eighties and early nineties. I for one would be interested in this happenning. I think it would add more value to the competiton as well as to the domestic leagues as teams would become even more competitive to reach for their respective domestic titles.

What are your thoughts and opions on this matter?
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#2
Wenger is a hypocrite, why didn't he say this 3 seasons ago and since then when his team kept on coming second and getting into cl thru the back door.

Cl is a good way to find the best team in Europe as sometimes champs are weaker the next season and the teams who came second or third might be stronger than them, whether by strengthening their squads or whatever

So that way you get the strongest teams in Cl .
 

Layce Erayce

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2002
9,116
#3
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Wenger is a hypocrite, why didn't he say this 3 seasons ago and since then when his team kept on coming second and getting into cl thru the back door.

Cl is a good way to find the best team in Europe as sometimes champs are weaker the next season and the teams who came second or third might be stronger than them, whether by strengthening their squads or whatever

So that way you get the strongest teams in Cl .
Yeah. Your right. Arsene is a bastard we all know that.

Plus It'd be financially stupid, as they'd earn a lot lesser.
 

delpi25

Junior Member
Jul 16, 2002
441
#4

you would still have the same if not more useless teams, whats the use of having the champions of Luxembourg in the competition.
 

Slagathor

Bedpan racing champion
Jul 25, 2001
22,708
#5
Exactly! I don't agree with the Micky Mouse-competition UEFA has turned the CL into but let's not follow Wenger's idea! The man is nuts!
 

dpforever

Prediction Game Champ 2003 & 2005
Jan 12, 2002
3,794
#6
SAY NO TO WENGER :D !!


Anyway, following Wenger's 'crazy' idea will miss on great teams like: Real, Barca, Roma, Inter, Milan, Liverpool, and Man Utd ...
 

Slagathor

Bedpan racing champion
Jul 25, 2001
22,708
#7
Here's what we would get if Wenger's idea was to be executed:

Spain: Valencia
Italy: Juventus
England: Arsenal
Holland: Ajax
France: Lens
Schotland: Celtic
Belgium: Anderlecht
Turkey: Galatasaray
Germany: Borussia Dortmund
Greece: Olympiakos
Austria: Sturm Graz
Norway: Rosenborg

Followed by even less well known clubs....
 

Roverbhoy

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,840
#8
Wouldn't one compromise solution be to let say the champions of the top 16 leagues straight into the leagues stage, but let the second place teams (and third teams from the top six) battle it out with the champs of the so called lower leagues. That way winning your league would count as something extra special, but coming second or third in the major leagues still gives you a chance to play in the major Euro competition, but by qualification proper rather than through what league you finished second or third in. This would give some credibility back to the title Champions League.

Tonight Celtic play the Champs of Switzerland to see who enters the group stages. Celtic lead 3-1 from the first leg. Basle are an excellent side who would give most major league teams a good game. No matter who wins tonight though, one of these countries will have no representative in the draw on Friday, whilst some leagues will have three. This is blatantly unfair. No matter how little respect some people may have for football standards in lower leagues, they should still have the chance to play with the big boys.

On a practical side, there is simply too many countries in Europe now to have a straight forward champs only comp. Something has to give. I say sixteen should go through to the group stages direct, with the lower leagues fighting it out with the second and thirds from the elite.

(OK…so Scotland are sixteenth just now…but I'm not biased…honest!!!)
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#10
Roverbhoy from your nickname definitely a celtic fan, but don't you think its too easy for Celtic to qualify for the Cl as all they have to do is beat rangers more than once in a season as they will always beat the other teams.

Btw your proposal is already in place as third place teams in the so called big leagues do have to qualify anyway

The teams i feel sorry for are teams like Galatasaray and Dinmo Kiev who keep on having to play qualifiers because their countries are not super rich

My feelings are that if you win your league and you are proven in europe, either you have done well in UEFA or Cl thne you should automatically qualify

Celtic have not really done anything in Europe in the 90's and neither have basle so i feel its right that they qualify

I mean look at Rangers winning the league 10 times in a row and almost always did not go past the first group stages, are you telling me a club like that deserves to qualify automatcally
 

Roverbhoy

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,840
#11
Some interesting points here. Firstly how many teams have won the EPL in the last, say ten years? How many times has an English team apart from Man U got to the final? How many teams have won the German or Spanish Leagues over that period? It's true that in Scotland Rangers and Celtic do at present dominate but isn't this the case in many of the so called major leagues (apart from Italy where anyone can win). Most top leagues have maybe only three or four teams who have real aspirations of winning…the rest are cannon fodder. The more teams you have in the CL the more chance you have of one of them doing well.

I'm fully aware that the third teams from the majors have to qualify, the poor souls. I pity them having to enter at the final qualifying stages, being seeded and guaranteed to get a soft team.

As for Galatasaray and Dinamo Kiev…is Scotland super rich?

Last year Celtic played in European competition the following:-
Ajax…who went on to win the Dutch League this year,
Rosenborg…who won the Norwegian League.
Valencia…who won the Spanish League
And a team called Juventus…who won the Italian League.
We held our own on each occasion.
It's true that in recent years we've lost in early rounds to Croatia Zagreb, Bourdoux and Lyon…but I don't regard this as some sort of dishonour…they are excellent teams…could Juve guarantee beating these teams home and away every time?
Many times Scottish teams had run into top teams in the early stages who have eliminated them…but then went on to win the comp..or lose in the final…PSG…Dortmund…Valencia..etc.

As for Rangers winning ten in a row..wash your mouth out..it was only …er….nine in a row..he..he.
And on many of the occasion's they qualified for the CL they went out on goal difference…..a Celtic fan standing up for the Gers..what next?
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#12
You see i would have sympathised with your views if Rangers had done well in Cl, thereby raising the profile of Scottish league.
Celtic did very well last season but thats only 1 season and to me thats not enough for Scotland to get an automatic spot

You mention Epl, Leeds reached the semis of Cl and semis of Uefa,Arsenal got to the final of Uefa and have reached the second stage of Cl on several occasions, Liverpool have won Uefa cup, and reached quater stage of Cl. first time of asking bearing in mind they won ec 4 times, Chelsea have won the ecwc and qualified for quater final of Cl

In Germany Dortmund, Kaiserslaurtern and Bayern have all won their leagues while dortmund have been thereabouts for 4 seasons now, Dortmund have won the Cl, been runner up in Uefa a few times, Bayern have won the uefa ancl lately

In Spain there are a number of teams that can win thier league and they are Barcelona, Valencia, Real madrid, Celta Vigo, Deportivo and they are the dominant league in Europe

My point is that while i do wholeheartedly aggree that Celtic should play a qualifier whether they win their league or not, i do disagree that Gala and Kiev shouldn't be automatic qualifiers as their recent European record is good
 

Roverbhoy

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,840
#13
I accept that Celtic have only done well over the previous season and would say that they may well not even get to the group stages of the CL this year as Basle are, I must admit, a very good side just now. Celtic may go out tonight.
One swallow doesn't make a summer

As for the EPL - in the last ten years England, Man U apart, have had Leeds in the Semi-finals once, and the rest only the second stage or quarters on a number of occasions…for a nation ten times bigger than Scotland that’s …well not particularly impressive, especially considering the amount of resources available. How does that compare to the Spanish, Germans or Italians? Incidentally this isn't an anti English thing, I just picked the league I knew best after the SPL as an example.

The Cup Winners Cup and Eufa cup are good competitions and England have done well here..perhaps because the best teams have been in the CL and the opposition isn't as strong there as many people on this forum also believe.

In Germany in ten years only three teams have won with another there about's..that's my point, only one more team winning the league than in Scotland. Celtic beating Rangers is an oversimplification of the requirements of winning the SPL. It's slightly more difficulty than that.

In Spain you mention five teams…from how many…this is my point. Scotland has 5 million population with two dominant teams…England 50 million with say three or four, Germany 80 million with four, and Spain…what…50 million with maybe five…. Were lucky for a nation so small to have two dominant teams…how about Rosenborg?
 

BigIzz

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
1,088
#14
I sort of like the idea, but I get a feeling that the bigger clubs would dominate a lot. If you look at what the competition would be this year, only Juve, Valencia and Arsenal would have any sort of significant chance of winning it.
 

Slagathor

Bedpan racing champion
Jul 25, 2001
22,708
#17
++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++In Spain you mention five teams…from how many…this is my point. Scotland has 5 million population with two dominant teams…England 50 million with say three or four, Germany 80 million with four, and Spain…what…50 million with maybe five…. Were lucky for a nation so small to have two dominant teams…how about Rosenborg?
Spain has only got 39 million inhabitants. :)

Norway has only 4.5 million inhabitants and is in the same situation as Scotland.
 

Roverbhoy

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,840
#18
++ [ originally posted by ErikP ] ++


Spain has only got 39 million inhabitants. :)

Norway has only 4.5 million inhabitants and is in the same situation as Scotland.
Hi Erik...long time man!
I couldn't remember Spains population of hand that's why I added 'what?'
Did you include the illegal imigrants..he..he?

As for Norway I knew their population was only 4.5 - 5 million. That's why I used them as an example of a country Scotlands' size that only has one dominant team at present while we are lucky to have two. Norways ranking, in my opinion is due solely to Rosenborg and their great runs in the CL over the years, although they seem to be receeding over the last few years. I may be doing a diservice to Norway though and am happy to hear from anyone who knows better on the subject.

Small countries have little chance of high ranks. Even when possessing super teams such as Dynamo Kiev, as Denco mentioned, they can perform wonders as an individual team, but one team can't raise their countries ranking on their own. They need strength in depth and that isn't possible for small countries.

I say again, in my opion, the more teams you have in the CL the better chance of raising your ranking.
 

Roverbhoy

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,840
#19
++ [ originally posted by BigIzz ] ++
I sort of like the idea, but I get a feeling that the bigger clubs would dominate a lot. If you look at what the competition would be this year, only Juve, Valencia and Arsenal would have any sort of significant chance of winning it.
Howdy BigIzz.

Rember though that Barca, Liverpool, etc would still probably qualify if using the solution proposed, but through the prequalification stage, not direct access. They would be there on merit, not auto qualification after defeating the champs of the so called lower leagues.

Don't worry. There would be plenty of big clubs there to boot Celtic's booty unfortunately. If we qualify that is.
 

Torkel

f(s+1)=3((s +1)-1=3s
Jul 12, 2002
3,537
#20
++ [ originally posted by Roverbhoy ] ++

As for Norway I knew their population was only 4.5 - 5 million. That's why I used them as an example of a country Scotlands' size that only has one dominant team at present while we are lucky to have two. Norways ranking, in my opinion is due solely to Rosenborg and their great runs in the CL over the years, although they seem to be receeding over the last few years. I may be doing a diservice to Norway though and am happy to hear from anyone who knows better on the subject.
rosenborgs gap to the other teams are decreasing, many feel that this is because rosenborg are getting worse, not the other teams improving. i think rosenborg is the only team that could make some sort of impact in europe

i feel that maybe the nr 4 team in spain is a better team than the winners of the norwegian lague, but still i think the norwegian team deserves to be in the CL more than the spanish team. i might sound weird, but i think it should be this way
 

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