The Problems With Ethical Relativism (2 Viewers)

[Martin]

Extra spatial dimensions are a mathematically defined subject and are used in modern physics quite often. It's not that hard to imagine. Basically if you could observe in 4 dimensions you could see our whole universe at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDaKzQNlMFw

So it's a definition used in physics? How is that supernatural then?

 

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[*aca*]

Extra spatial dimensions are a mathematically defined subject and are used in modern physics quite often. It's not that hard to imagine. Basically if you could observe in 4 dimensions you could see our whole universe at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDaKzQNlMFw

i did not mean that. Sorry for not being clear

I meant how do you know that god moves through 4th dimension? what is the mechanics of it? how do you know that god can do that? how does he/she/it do it?

 

[Dinsdale]

So it's a definition used in physics? How is that supernatural then?

I asked whether you consider it supernatural, because it's not part of our universe.

 

[*aca*]

So it's a definition used in physics? How is that supernatural then?

that too

 

[Dinsdale]

i did not mean that. Sorry for not being clear

I meant how do you know that god moves through 4th dimension? what is the mechanics of it? how do you know that god can do that? how does he/she/it do it?

I don't know and have never claimed to know. Just trying to give a notion of what supernatural can be.

Get off my back you anti-religion police guys.

 

[rounder]

how do you know this?

That's the definition of a supernatural being.

This is not concrete. It says what supernatural existence is not. It is not existence in the natural world. But it tells me nothing about what it is.

It's like saying "that dot on the radar, that's not a car". And based on that I'm supposed to understand what it is.

We are talking about a metaphysical concept here. We haven't identified which theistic God I am suggesting nor have we discussed this God's personality. I am merely suggesting that the concept of a supernatural entity is possible and indeed very plausible, I am only insinuating that this dot on the radar exists, I haven't stated what it is yet, it is not necessary for the purpose of the argument for whether or not god exists.

 

[Martin]

I asked whether you consider it supernatural, because it's not part of our universe.

Well, that's self defeating then. If you say it's a mathematical definition and not existing in our universe then this hypothetical god wouldn't be able to traverse this non existent dimension, would he?

 

[Martin]

We are talking about a metaphysical concept here. We haven't identified which theistic God I am suggesting nor have we discussed this God's personality. I am merely suggesting that the concept of a supernatural entity is possible and indeed very plausible, I am only insinuating that this dot on the radar exists, I haven't stated what it is yet, it is not necessary for the purpose of the argument for whether or not god exists.

There is no concept yet. It has not been defined.

 

[Dinsdale]

Well, that's self defeating then. If you say it's a mathematical definition and not existing in our universe then this hypothetical god wouldn't be able to traverse this non existent dimension, would he?

No you got it all wrong. Our universe would then be a subset of a higher dimensional space.

 

[rounder]

I don't know and have never claimed to know. Just trying to give a notion of what supernatural can be.

Get off my back you anti-religion police guys.

The definiton I am using is an entity that does not have any dimensions at all meaning that it is timeless and spaceless. It is infinite in its nature.

Perhaps your suggestion could be a viable alternative, does it suggest that a supernatural force does abide by the rules of nature and what makes it supernatural is this added dimension?

 

[Martin]

No you got it all wrong. Our universe would then be a subset of a higher dimensional space.

But to say that god can traverse this higher dimensional space is to say that this space exists, doesn't it? Which means it becomes part of our definition for what is natural.

 

[Dinsdale]

The definiton I am using is an entity that does not have any dimensions at all meaning that it is timeless and spaceless. It is infinite in its nature.

Perhaps your suggestion could be a viable alternative, does it suggest that a supernatural force does abide by the rules of nature and what makes it supernatural is this added dimension?

It's possible that there is a different set of natural laws in a higher dimensional space. And if there is an observer that exists in a higher dimensional space, it could perfectly see all of us at the same time without us ever seeing it.

 

[Dinsdale]

But to say that god can traverse this higher dimensional space is to say that this space exists, doesn't it? Which means it becomes part of our definition for what is natural.

Why does it even matter whether you call it natural or supernatural?

 

[rounder]

It's possible that there is a different set of natural laws in a higher dimensional space. And if there is an observer that exists in a higher dimensional space, it could perfectly see all of us at the same time without us ever seeing it.

It's an interesting concept. Thanks.

 

[Martin]

Why does it even matter whether you call it natural or supernatural?

It's a matter of words, really. JuveRev has not given me any concrete definition of something that is supernatural, so he's just using the word supernatural as if tacking on an adjective to a known word, thereby transforming it in an unspecified way, means something. Therefore it does matter.

 

[rounder]

It's a matter of words, really. JuveRev has not given me any concrete definition of something that is supernatural, so he's just using the word supernatural as if tacking on an adjective to a known word, thereby transforming it in an unspecified way, means something. Therefore it does matter.

Please elaborate, what sort of definition are you looking for exactly?

 

[Dinsdale]

It's a matter of words, really. JuveRev has not given me any concrete definition of something that is supernatural, so he's just using the word supernatural as if tacking on an adjective to a known word, thereby transforming it in an unspecified way, means something. Therefore it does matter.

Yeah, you asked a definition and that's why I tried to give a concrete example of something that can be considered supernatural. And your response is: "Nope. Not supernatural."

If something (literally) outside our universe can't be considered supernatural, then I don't know what can.

 

[Martin]

Yeah, you asked a definition and that's why I tried to give a concrete example of something that can be considered supernatural. And your response is: "Nope. Not supernatural."

If something (literally) outside our universe can't be considered supernatural, then I don't know what can.

The fundamental question JuveRev asked is "can you rule out the possibility of god" and I said "yes, because the concept is meaningless".

So for the purposes of that discussion, if you say that a higher dimensional space (about which I know zip) is something this god could use to express his supernaturality, then that would mean it exists by the definitions of our natural laws, doesn't it?

I mean if the higher dimensional space doesn't exist then neither does the supernatural god, because that's his only premise.

 

[Martin]

Please elaborate, what sort of definition are you looking for exactly?

I can't really be sure. The best I can say is "one that is understandable".

 

[Martin]

The basic difficulty here is that you cannot define something in terms of nothing. So this god, in order to be defined, must be defined in terms of something that we know about. And the only things we know about exist in the natural world. But in terms of them you can only define natural things.