The Problems With Ethical Relativism (1 Viewer)

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Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#1
In the light of recent debates I have had about the nature of morality; I want to reinstate my point of view that morality is indeed objective. I would like to highlight the fundamental flaws of ethical relativism and why exactly I cannot accept it.

Let me first define ethical relativism. It is is the theory that holds that morality is relative to the norms of one's culture. That is, whether an action is right or wrong depends on the moral norms of the society in which it is practiced. The same action may be morally right in one society but be morally wrong in another. For the ethical relativist, there are no universal moral standards, standards that can be universally applied to all peoples at all times. The only moral standards against which a society's practices can be judged are its own. If ethical relativism is correct, there can be no common framework for resolving moral disputes or for reaching agreement on ethical matters among members of different societies.


1)
While the moral practices of societies may differ, the fundamental moral principles underlying these practices do not. For example, in some societies, killing one's parents after they reached a certain age was common practice, stemming from the belief that people were better off in the afterlife if they entered it while still physically active and vigorous. While such a practice would be condemned in our society, we would agree with these societies on the underlying moral principle, the duty to care for parents. Societies, then, may differ in their application of fundamental moral principles but agree on the principles.

2)
It may be the case that some moral beliefs are culturally relative whereas others are not. Certain practices, such as customs regarding dress and decency, may depend on local custom whereas other practices, such as slavery, torture, or political repression, may be governed by universal moral standards and judged wrong despite the many other differences that exist among cultures. Simply because some practices are relative does not mean that all practices are relative.


3)
If the rightness or wrongness of an action depends on a society's norms, then it follows that one must obey the norms of one's society and to diverge from those norms is to act immorally. This means that if I am a member of a society that believes that racial or sexist practices are morally permissible, then I must accept those practices as morally right. But such a view promotes social conformity and leaves no room for moral reform or improvement in a society. Furthermore, members of the same society may hold different views on practices. In the United States, for example, a variety of moral opinions exists on matters ranging from animal experimentation to abortion. What constitutes right action when social consensus is lacking?

4)
Universal moral standards can exist even if some moral practices and beliefs vary among cultures. In other words, we can acknowledge cultural differences in moral practices and beliefs and still hold that some of these practices and beliefs are morally wrong. The practice of slavery in pre-Civil war U.S. society is wrong despite the beliefs of the society itself. The treatment of the Jews in Nazi society is morally reprehensible regardless of the moral beliefs of Nazi society.

Just because the Zani's believed their actions were morally justified, that does not deem their actions moral.


To answer a point Martin recently made.
'What is the point of Objective Morality if there is no way to find
objective moral truths. Since whatever I believe is moral is ultimately relative to my own moral standard, how can we ever decide on what is objectively moral?'

I will try to answer this question given my limited understanding of morality.

Consider two sets of actions, set A ( Do not rape ) and set B ( Rape if it makes you feel better). Now, clearly these are two opposing viewpoints, the factor deciding which set of actions is more moral strictly depends on the individual standards.

In the case of ethical relativism.
Neither of the two sets are really wrong or really right. Thus trying to discuss which set is the more moral of the two is utterly useless. Trying to debate the subject of morality itself seems pointless. Since nothing is really right or wrong, there is no use in imposing one morality over the other since they are equally justifiable.

In the case of objective morality.
Either set is clearly more moral than the other according to an objective moral standard. Thus, it is in fact beneficial to try and decide which set is morally right. Since either set A or set B contain the moral truth; it would then make sense to decide on one over the other. This is not the case with ethical relativism.

This is one reason why I think the existence of an objective morality is indeed beneficial. It gives reason to better our society and resort to absolute moral truths such as set A, instead of simply settling on what the law of our country states.
 

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,189
#4
I think I won't argue about this for a while. Maybe Martin will respond, but unfortunately I don't have the time right now.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#5
Nah, I've discussed this a dozen times now and Rev (reverend?) still doesn't grasp the concept of objectivity. He says things like "it's obvious" without substantiating it. I tried to explain to him that objectivity must be based on facts, but he keeps ignoring that.

It's hopeless.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,189
#6
Nah, I've discussed this a dozen times now and Rev (reverend?) still doesn't grasp the concept of objectivity. He says things like "it's obvious" without substantiating it. I tried to explain to him that objectivity must be based on facts, but he keeps ignoring that.

It's hopeless.
It really sucks the life out of you.
 

*aca*

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2002
869
#7
even easier, name one "objective" moral value that did not change over time.

saying that there are objective moral values is the same as to say that there are external moral values. If there are external moral values, you have to provide evidence that they exist and must provide evidence for the moral value giver.

I'm guessing some kind of god comes into picture and we all know how much evidence there is for existence of one (or more ;) )
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#8
I'm guessing some kind of god comes into picture and we all know how much evidence there is for existence of one (or more ;) )
Interesting point. I wonder if we had a survey to find out which god has the backing of the most evidence who would win.
 

*aca*

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2002
869
#9
last thing before real life kicks in again. :D

Moral relativism does not mean that there is no set of moral values that we can all subscribe to, just that there is no objective set where all moral propositions are already assigned as true or false.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
#12
No, not at all. I mean how convincing the evidence is (if any) in each case. Then we would learn who the most likely god actually is. It would probably be some guy that didn't boast too much and didn't promise too much.
It would be too hard to name them all or choose from couple of them, since there are millions of gods and their evidence is basically the same.
 

*aca*

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2002
869
#13
No, not at all. I mean how convincing the evidence is (if any) in each case. Then we would learn who the most likely god actually is. It would probably be some guy that didn't boast too much and didn't promise too much.
if that is what you had in mind, than my guess would be a "indifferent" deist god.

He created the universe and left it to it's own devices because he doesn't give a flying fuck .

that would make sense, but i do not think that many believer would agree with that ;) and maybe i would agree with that too, but Occam razor cuts through quite easily
 
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Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
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  • Thread Starter #14
    I have nicely summed up why I don't believe in ethical relativism.

    Do you think you can prove to me that all of these points are wrong?
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    #16
    if that is what you had in mind, than my guess would be a "indifferent" deist god.

    He created the universe and left it to it's own devices because he doesn't give a flying fuck .

    that would make sense, but i do not think that many believer would agree with that ;) and maybe i would agree with that too, but Occam razor cuts through quite easily
    You're too clever :D

    Okay, I meant a god according to whose theology his presence is somehow discernible from non existence :D
     

    *aca*

    Senior Member
    Jul 15, 2002
    869
    #17
    I have nicely summed up why I don't believe in ethical relativism.

    Do you think you can prove to me that all of these points are wrong?
    There are many points that you make (about moral values changing true time) which are correct. They change because they are subjective not because there is a set of objective values that we did not discover.

    In order for you to argue that objective value exist, you have to provide evidence for their existence, not argue against moral relativity because moral relativity is not perfect.

    Cant you see the difference?
     

    *aca*

    Senior Member
    Jul 15, 2002
    869
    #18
    You're too clever :D

    Okay, I meant a god according to whose theology his presence is somehow discernible from non existence :D
    heheheh, so we are back to square one ;)

    Further more, if there is a objective moral law giver and that giver is a god, those value are still not objective. They are subjective to the law giver ;)
     
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    Blindman
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
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  • Thread Starter #19
    The purpose of this thread was to indicate the fallacies of ethical relativism. I will reserve the discussion of objective morality to another day. Heres another flaw by the way.

    If we reject the theist basis of morality, we are left with subjective relativism. And what we call murder is committed in many many ways in the animal kingdom. We cannot tell the lion is wrong to commit murder of another animal - the lion doesn't even understand what right and wrong are.
     

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