The Problems With Ethical Relativism (8 Viewers)

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
I agree, and that's why it is intellectually fallable to state that you know God does not exist 100%. Hopefully, you agree with me here.
You misunderstand again.

I do not say "god does not exist" because noone has seen god. I say "god does not exist" because the concept of god itself makes no sense.

Can you understand the difference? The concept of god is self contradictory. Therefore it cannot logically exist.

The concept of god is like a car that is both red and not red. Would you argue that I cannot be sure that noone has seen a car that is both red and not red? No, because it's logically impossible. Therefore I can be completely certain.
 

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Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,603
Nothing is objectively true ABOUT MORAL CHOICES. And it does not refer to itself.

It doesn't say "this statement which says nothing is true is referring to itself therefore it is is also not true". You wildly misunderstand this.
If you go by juve rev's logic then you can never judge something as subjective because everything would be objective. and the multiple is is is is he just wrote lol are there for a reason.. its not a typo
 
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Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #123
    maybe but either way we cannot know if this is the case or not.
    The problem is not of whether there is the absolute principles that you are talking about... the problem is that of judgement.
    We cannot judge objectively whether there exists such laws or not because our judgment is always shadowed by past experience and emotions.
    If these laws were self evident then this problem is already solved but they are not.
    Attaining knowledge of such thing is impossible because making an objective judgment about it is impossible... so believing it exists or not is impossible.

    Moral relativism does not suggest that consensus about a moral topic is impossible because this would obviously be false as the world does agree on many things. However, Taking the exact same factors into account while performing the judgment (even if agreement was met) is impossible and that is why they claim its relative to the judge.
    On the other Hand, Mathematics does not take these factors into account because the process of judgment in Math does not take personal emotions and culture into account. It is none debatable unlike morals.
    So the point is, that maybe moral laws are objective in themselves (meaning there is a best way to act in each situation) but we as human beings cannot objectively know their existence, it is above our capabilities and hence we disagree on this very topic. This too has to do with faith that is why i don't see it as sufficient proof for god's existence. If you were to prove its objective reality using an objective argument like that we use in math then it would be a proof of god's existence.

    Humans then pass judgment using their moral books on other society's moral books and so cultural shocks take place. So in attempting to reach agreement on a wider scale, while acknowledging that our judgment is relative, groups such as the UN and others (in this age of globalization) try to make morality look more like math to search for an objective moral truth like the one you believe in. They add criteria to it to have a more efficient judging system so that we can be able to punish and reward while maintaining justice. Criteria like Universality where you take a certain situation and analyze a certain action by seeing if every person in the world were to do that action in that certain situation. On that wide scale, a universal scale, would the world be better with slavery or without?
    The world agreed that slavery was not the best way to go like 100 years ago only. This is because of our refining criteria that tries to eliminate the subjective factors judges take into account making morals more like math in order for the world to live a better life.. to making a better state.
    Whether the world at one point will Fix its moral code as THE CORRECT MORAL CODE (like the one you suggest) that will not be modified ever again is a matter of faith.

    shit you make me write a lot.

    EDIT: That is why morality is not a science... and that is why whenever we try to objectively study something we try to turn it to numbers.. as numbers are the most objective thing we have.

    Point taken. I simply invite you to consider the implications behind moral relativism and whether they seem compatible with reality. Then I invite to consider objective morality, consider how compatible it is with reality.

    Personally, I believe the latter seems to be more compatible, I could be wrong ofcourse.
     

    Hist

    Founder of Hism
    Jan 18, 2009
    11,603
    Point taken. I simply invite you to consider the implications behind moral relativism and whether they seem compatible with reality. Then I invite to consider objective morality, consider how compatible it is with reality.

    Personally, I believe the latter seems to be more compatible, I could be wrong ofcourse.
    I would certainly like to believe in objective morality rather than subjective one but i also would like to believe in God's existence rather than his none existence but in both cases i cannot find an objective path to lead me to an objective answer.

    I am still looking for objective grounds and i haven't given up yet i am still at the beginning of my academic career (hopefully) and i thank you for making me think about this as i never took this approach before. As is said my mind is not fixed on one point. i am always shifty in these matters as i always add more factors to my consideration that i never thought of before (and this makes my judgment subjective to my state of mind in a way lol)
    I'd love to find solid objective grounds by which i can arrive at god's existence and i like to believe there is because his holiness deserves to say the least.
    So whenever you find a new approach.. throw it at me I'd love to think it through. I'll do the same for you if you want.
    Until then thank you and i hope this
    ++:mark:

    oh and read this: Aquinas - On Faith and reason
    Its catholic but his way of thinking applies to all, Muslims included. You'll love it and maybe it serves you better than it did me.
     
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    Blindman
    Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #126
    You misunderstand again.

    I do not say "god does not exist" because noone has seen god.I say "god does not exist" because the concept of god itself makes no sense.
    Can you understand the difference? The concept of god is self contradictory. Therefore it cannot logically exist.

    The concept of god is like a car that is both red and not red. Would you argue that I cannot be sure that noone has seen a car that is both red and not red? No, because it's logically impossible. Therefore I can be completely certain.
    What?? How and why is the concept of God self-contradictory? I hope you don't mean a loving and all powerful God cannot permit suffering because that's probably the most hopeless argument I have heard yet.

    God and suffering are not logically incompatible and it hurts me that you can't see that. Maybe you don't want suffering and thus you reject the idea of a God that allows suffering but the statement is not logically incompatible by any stretch of the imagination.
     
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    Blindman
    Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #127
    Would you deny the possibility of a deistic God also if you are so sure a theistic one cannot exist?
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    What?? How and why is the concept of God self-contradictory? I hope you don't mean a loving and all powerful God cannot permit suffering because that's probably the most hopeless argument I have heard yet.

    God and suffering are not logically incompatible and it hurts me that you can't see that. Maybe you don't want suffering and thus you reject the idea of a God that allows suffering but the statement is not logically incompatible by any stretch of the imagination.
    No, that is more to do with this god's personality disorder. How insecure he is, constantly needing someone to tell him how great he is, how he contradicts himself.

    But no, the rationale was a different one. And I think we went over this some time ago. Frankly I can't be bothered to look it up, it was from a book and I can't make a sound argument off hand.

    It is, however, very easy to give the argument for agnosticism. Which is not what you asked for, granted.
     
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    Blindman
    Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #130
    Do you at least recall the name of the book? I really am interested because I have not yet encountered any argument that proves God is a logical impossibility.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    Found it here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...yH0YpDVd1B4ahYSAQ&sig2=lQQ8NsaaEthsKMn9c7JW8A

    If I'm not mistaken the part you are most interested in is Part 2, The Meaning of God.

    The book is more convincing than I could be in any case.

    Here's a nice excerpt:

    (a) The first problem with the designation of supernatural (or any equivalent term) is that it tells us nothing positive about a god. “Supernatural” tells us what a god is not—that it is not part of the natural universe—but it does not tell us what a god is. What identifiable characteristics does a god possess? In other words, how will we recognize a god if we run across one? To state that a god is supernatural does not provide us with an answer.

    In addition, the entire notion of a supernatural being is incomprehensible. The theist wishes us to conceive of a being exempt from natural law—a being that does not fall within the domain of scientific explanation—but no theist has ever explained how we can conceive of existence other than “natural” existence. “Natural existence” is a redundancy; we have no familiarity with “unnatural” existence, or even a vague notion of what such existence would be like.

    Natural law pertains to the presence of regularity in the universe, and, for this reason, it is sometimes referred to as the “uniformity of nature.” Entities behave according to specific causal conditions, and we know that an object will not suddenly disappear or act in an incredible manner without an explanation or causal antecedent. Given the right conditions, an acorn will grow into a tree; it will not mysteriously transform itself into a pumpkin, a snowball, or a theologian. A dog will not sprout wings and breathe fire, a cat will not give birth to an elephant, and a colony of ants will not burst into a chorus of the national anthem.

    Natural law is based upon the limited nature of existence. Every entity has a specific nature, specific characteristics, that determine the capacities of that entity. A plant, for example, does not have the capacity to think, and a man does not have the biological capacity for photosynthesis. The capacities, abilities, and potential actions of any existing thing, living or inanimate, are dependent on its characteristics—and since these are always specific and determinate, their resulting capacities are also specific and determinate. The characteristics of an entity determine what an entity can and cannot do; limitations are an integral part of the natural universe, and they constitute the foundation of natural law.

    Regularity in nature is the consequence of limitations; entities are limited in terms of their actions. No existing thing can randomly do anything at any time under any conditions. This uniformity in nature permits the systematic study of reality (science) and the formulation of general principles of nature (“laws”) which are used in predicting future states of affairs. While the particular scientific laws will change as man’s knowledge increases, the principle of natural law itself is a constant; it persists as a corollary of existence.

    This, in essence, is the meaning of natural existence or natural law. A god, as we have seen, cannot exist within this framework, but according to the theists he must exist nonetheless. This brings us to the considerable problem of how anything can exist as a supernatural being.

    If a supernatural being is to be exempt from natural law, it cannot possess specific, determinate characteristics. These attributes would impose limits and these limits would restrict the capacities of this supernatural being. In this case, a supernatural being would be subject to the causal relationships that mark natural existence, which would disqualify it as a god. Therefore, we must somehow conceive of a being without a specific nature, a being that is indeterminate—a being, in other words, that is nothing in particular. But these characteristics (or, more precisely, lack of characteristics) are incompatible with the notion of existence itself.
     
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    Blindman
    Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #132
    "If a supernatural being is to be exempt from natural law, it cannot possess specific, determinate characteristics. These attributes would impose limits and these limits would restrict the capacities of this supernatural being. In this case, a supernatural being would be subject to the causal relationships that mark natural existence, which would disqualify it as a god. Therefore, we must somehow conceive of a being without a specific nature, a being that is indeterminate—a being, in other words, that is nothing in particular. But these characteristics (or, more precisely, lack of characteristics) are incompatible with the notion of existence itself."

    His premises are entirely false. He equates the notion of existence within nature to the notion of existence itself. It is not the same thing. An unidentifiable, unspecific being cannot exist in nature because nature requires identity, this is absolutely true. That is not to say that a being cannot exist outside of nature and natural laws themselves. A supernatural being that maintains infinite qualities that do not repress or revoke its supernatural nature as inifinite, boundless, timeless, spaceless can in fact exist beyond nature.

    This by no means proves that God is an impossibility, this only proves that a supernatural being within nature is an impossibility and as I have mentioned a long time ago when we were discussing the origin of the universe, God is outside the limits of space and time, thus outside nature itself. A supernatural being does not need to have natural qualities in order to exist eternally and infinitely.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    His premises are entirely false. He equates the notion of existence within nature to the notion of existence itself. It is not the same thing. An unidentifiable, unspecific being cannot exist in nature because nature requires identity, this is absolutely true. That is not to say that a being cannot exist outside of nature and natural laws themselves. A supernatural being that maintains infinite qualities that do not repress or revoke its supernatural nature as inifinite, boundless, timeless, spaceless can in fact exist beyond nature.
    But like he says "natural existence" is the only kind of existence that is intelligible to us. If you have some other form of existence that you insist is possible then in order for that to be an intelligible concept you have to explain what that means. I cannot accept the notion of "supernatural existence" because that is an empty statement that means nothing to me.
     
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    Blindman
    Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #134
    But like he says "natural existence" is the only kind of existence that is intelligible to us. If you have some other form of existence that you insist is possible then in order for that to be an intelligible concept you have to explain what that means. I cannot accept the notion of "supernatural existence" because that is an empty statement that means nothing to me.

    Definition.
    Supernatural existence : Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.


    I insist that supernatural existence is possible. A supernatural being is one that is unbinded by the natural laws of the natural world. Meaning that concepts such as time, space, casuality do not apply to this being. These are the attributes that are given to a supernatural being.
     
    Jun 26, 2007
    2,706
    But like he says "natural existence" is the only kind of existence that is intelligible to us. If you have some other form of existence that you insist is possible then in order for that to be an intelligible concept you have to explain what that means. I cannot accept the notion of "supernatural existence" because that is an empty statement that means nothing to me.
    How about an entity that can move in more than 3 spatial dimensions?
     

    *aca*

    Senior Member
    Jul 15, 2002
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    Definition.
    Supernatural existence : Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.


    I insist that supernatural existence is possible. A supernatural being is one that is unbinded by the natural laws of the natural world. Meaning that concepts such as time, space, casuality do not apply to this being. These are the attributes that are given to a supernatural being.


    how do you know this?
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
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    Definition.
    Supernatural existence : Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
    This is not concrete. It says what supernatural existence is not. It is not existence in the natural world. But it tells me nothing about what it is.

    It's like saying "that dot on the radar, that's not a car". And based on that I'm supposed to understand what it is.
     
    Jun 26, 2007
    2,706
    what is the 4th one?

    also, how do you know this?
    Extra spatial dimensions are a mathematically defined subject and are used in modern physics quite often. It's not that hard to imagine. Basically if you could observe in 4 dimensions you could see our whole universe at the same time.

     

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