The Plausibility Argument (1 Viewer)

Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#1
Before you read this, consider God as a supernatural force outside time and space. I say this so as to avoid the famous childish question, "Who created God?".

Most of the extracts below are references to the book, "The Language of God".
First, one must be familiar to the Anthropic priniciple. Now there are three possible responses to the Anthropic principle.

1- There may be an essentially infinite number of universes, either occuring simultaneously with our own or in some sequence, with different values of physical constants, and maybe even different physical laws. We are, however, unable to observe the other universes. we can exist only in a universe where all the physical properties work together to permit life and consciousness. Ours is not miraculous, it is simply an unusual product of trial and error. This is called the 'multiuniverse' hypothesis.

2- There is only one universe, and this is it. It just happened to have all the right charectaristics to give rise to intelligent life. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be here discussing this. We are just very, very, very lucky.,

3- There is only one universe. and this is it. The precise tuning of all of the physical constantsand physical laws to make intelligent life possible is not an accident, but reflects the action of the one who created the universe in the first place.

So where should we come down on the three options listed above? Let us approach it logically. To begin with, we have the observation of the universe as we know it, including ourselves. We then wish to calculate which of these three possible options is most likely. For option 1, as the number of parallel universes approaches infinity, then the likelihood of at least one of them havinng the physical properties of life could be substantial. For option 2, however, the probability will be vanishingly small. The likelihood of option 3 depends on the existence of a supernatural Creator who cares about a nonsterile universe.

On the basis of probability, option 2 is the least plauisble. That leaves us with option 1 and 3. The first is logically defensible, but this near-infinite number of unobservable universes stains credulity. It certainly fails Occam's Razor.

Those categorically unwilling to accept an intelligent Creator will argue, however, that option 3 is not simpler at all, since it requires the intercession of a supernatural being. It could be argued, however, that the Big Bang itself seems to point strongle towards a Creator, since otherwise the question of what came before is left hanging in the air.

If one is willing to accept the argument that the Big Bang requires a Creator, then it is not a long leap to suggest that the Creatot might have established the paramaters( Physical laws etc..) in order to accomplish a particular goal. If that goal happened to include a universe that was more than a featureless void, then we have arrived at option 3.

In trying to judge betweens options 1 and 3, a particular parable by philosopher John Leslie comes to mind. In this parable, and individual faces a firing squad, and fifty expert marksmen aim their rifles to carry out the deed. The order is given, the shots ring out, and yet somehow all of the bullets miss and the condemned individual walks away untouched.

How could such a remarkable event be explained? Leislie suggests there are two possible alternatives, which correspond to the options 1 and 3. In the first place, there may have been thousands of executions carried out that same day, and even the best marksmen will occasionally miss. So the odds just happen to be in favour of this one individual, and all fifty of the marksmen fail to hit the target. The other option is that something more directed is going on, and the apparent poor aim of the fifty experts was actually intentional. Which seems more plausible?
 

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Il Re

-- 10 --
Jan 13, 2005
4,031
#2
i would read it, but it's kind of long, and i have a headache, and i believe in god anyway, so i guess it's for people who don't believe in god right?
 
OP
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Jun 13, 2007
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  • Thread Starter #3
    Yes, it's intended for people who don't believe in god. Although, it's interesting to know even if you are a theist.
     
    OP
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    Actually, that's the reason I posted this particular extract. You will be surprised to know that nearly all the atheists in this forum would choose option 2. Although it is logically evident that option 2 is highly improbably, many people will still believe it. If you ask me, I think it takes more faith to believe in option 2 than option three ironically enough.
     

    Il Re

    -- 10 --
    Jan 13, 2005
    4,031
    #8
    Actually, that's the reason I posted this particular extract. You will be surprised to know that nearly all the atheists in this forum would choose option 2. Although it is logically evident that option 2 is highly improbably, many people will still believe it. If you ask me, I think it takes more faith to believe in option 2 than option three ironically enough.
    oh yes, we live in the wonderful magical land, of pixies and faries where things just happen for no reason, wooo, lalalala

    surely you can be an atheist and believe in the other options? or maybe i did not read it thouroughly enough?
     
    OP
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  • Thread Starter #9
    Ofcourse you could but the atheists here don't believe in option 1, they believe in option 2.
     

    Zlatan

    Senior Member
    Jun 9, 2003
    23,049
    #10
    To ask what existed before God (or who created God) is childish, but to claim that something had to create the Universe isn't? Right. Double standards from the first sentence.
     
    OP
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  • Thread Starter #11
    To ask what existed before God (or who created God) is childish, but to claim that something had to create the Universe isn't? Right. Double standards from the first sentence.
    It's childish only when you ignore the definition of God. Many people tend to define god the way they choose to define him, And when you do so, logical errors will inevitably occur. Therefore, to avoid such errors, I am simply stating the concept of God, that He is outside time and space.
     

    mikhail

    Senior Member
    Jan 24, 2003
    9,576
    #12
    Don't cut yourself on Occam's Razor there Juve Revolution.

    The probability that the universe we live in is suited to life is 1. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. That's the anthropic principle. We have no evidence relating to the reasons for it being so. We can make no predictions with any of the theorys mentioned. Ergo, they are not scientific. Occam's Razor doesn't apply. The correct answer, scientifically, is, "We don't know."

    Some day, we may devise a theory of physics which makes predictions based on one of those assumptions. That day isn't today.
     

    Enron

    Tickle Me
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    Oct 11, 2005
    75,252
    #13
    Don't cut yourself on Occam's Razor there Juve Revolution.

    The probability that the universe we live in is suited to life is 1. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. That's the anthropic principle. We have no evidence relating to the reasons for it being so. We can make no predictions with any of the theorys mentioned. Ergo, they are not scientific. Occam's Razor doesn't apply. The correct answer, scientifically, is, "We don't know."

    Some day, we may devise a theory of physics which makes predictions based on one of those assumptions. That day isn't today.
    Totally what I thought the anthropic principle was.

    I really don't like it when people attempt to mix theology with scientific thought and pass it off as legitimate. By legitimate I mean proven by science.
     
    OP
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  • Thread Starter #14
    Don't cut yourself on Occam's Razor there Juve Revolution.

    The probability that the universe we live in is suited to life is 1. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. That's the anthropic principle. We have no evidence relating to the reasons for it being so. We can make no predictions with any of the theorys mentioned. Ergo, they are not scientific. Occam's Razor doesn't apply. The correct answer, scientifically, is, "We don't know."

    Some day, we may devise a theory of physics which makes predictions based on one of those assumptions. That day isn't today.
    First off, scientifically, there is no answer. We simply debate on the means of reason and philosophy.

    Occam's Razor merely states that the best explanation is usually the simplest. This is actually a very logical statement," if you can't explain a theory to your local bartender, it is simply not good enough". I don't see why it cannot apply here.

    The question of probability is not that of whether the universe we live in is suited for life. Obviously, it is. The question is whether this occurence of life on earth was entirely by means of coincidence, the probability of that is exceedingly small.

    The scientific theory suggests that the sun actually formed 5 billion years ago. an argument can be made that the origins of complex life could not have been made 5-10 billion years after the big bang. This implicates the intervention of a higher power.
     

    Enron

    Tickle Me
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    Oct 11, 2005
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    #19
    First off, scientifically, there is no answer. We simply debate on the means of reason and philosophy.

    Occam's Razor merely states that the best explanation is usually the simplest. This is actually a very logical statement," if you can't explain a theory to your local bartender, it is simply not good enough". I don't see why it cannot apply here.

    The question of probability is not that of whether the universe we live in is suited for life. Obviously, it is. The question is whether this occurence of life on earth was entirely by means of coincidence, the probability of that is exceedingly small.

    The scientific theory suggests that the sun actually formed 5 billion years ago. an argument can be made that the origins of complex life could not have been made 5-10 billion years after the big bang. This implicates the intervention of a higher power.
    Isn't that the same as "I don't know"?

    Secondly, you do realize that the universe is very, very big right? It is more than just our planet and the space we take up. Out of our own solar system, Earth, is the only planet with the capability to sustain life. The fact that the Earth is the only life sustaining planet that we know of speaks volumes about how suited for life our universe. It isn't suited for life.

    The scientific theory? Which one is that? I've heard many explanations for the formulation of our solar system and not one uses a miracle scenario. You're trying to say that scientifically god created the universe. But there is no scientific evidences implicating or even suggesting this. There is way more evidence regard the slamming together of trillions of tons of ice and minerals, the mixing of gases, etc.

    Quit taking faith based philosophy and trying to quantify it as science with a bunch of if and maybe scenario's. It really gets on the nerves of people who are actually trying to solve the problems of our own world.

    Though a better suggestion, that fits more in line with the idea of faith, is that the creator was bored, grabbed up his creation dice, and said YATZE!! Creating the big bang that started it all. But the religious must be absolute in their suggestions and cannot have "I don't know" as an answer. Talk about faith.
     
    OP
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    Isn't that the same as "I don't know"?

    Secondly, you do realize that the universe is very, very big right? It is more than just our planet and the space we take up. Out of our own solar system, Earth, is the only planet with the capability to sustain life. The fact that the Earth is the only life sustaining planet that we know of speaks volumes about how suited for life our universe. It isn't suited for life.

    The scientific theory? Which one is that? I've heard many explanations for the formulation of our solar system and not one uses a miracle scenario. You're trying to say that scientifically god created the universe. But there is no scientific evidences implicating or even suggesting this. There is way more evidence regard the slamming together of trillions of tons of ice and minerals, the mixing of gases, etc.

    Quit taking faith based philosophy and trying to quantify it as science with a bunch of if and maybe scenario's. It really gets on the nerves of people who are actually trying to solve the problems of our own world.

    Though a better suggestion, that fits more in line with the idea of faith, is that the creator was bored, grabbed up his creation dice, and said YATZE!! Creating the big bang that started it all. But the religious must be absolute in their suggestions and cannot have "I don't know" as an answer. Talk about faith.
    The scientific theory, look it up if you do not know what I am talking about, does state that the star (our sun) formed 5 billion years ago. This is a theory based on scientific calculations, I didn't make it up. Now, life on earth occured a mere couple of hundred million years later. What I suggested is that it takes a much longer time for intelligent life to form.

    This philosophy is anything that is faith based, most of the theories I presented here are from a scientist names Francis Collins, look him up. He started believing god in his late twenties, he strongly believed in atheism untill that time. The theory that changed his mind most was the "Moral Law", perhaps a topic I will post soon here.

    It is remarkable to me that you post as if attacking me, it's like I have harmed you in some way. I'm not, these are simply interesting perspectives and philosophies that are worth noting. Also, when you approach a dilema such as the question of the existence of god, you must approach this subject with skepticism but also with a clear mind open to new ideas.

    To me, it seems you have made up your mind as an atheist and nothing I say or do will ever change your mind, the same can be said about many theists.

    To be honest, I really don't know what your point is in that last paragraph.
     

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