The NHL Thread (40 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
- Start date
I just decided to take a look back at the last 24 years of first round picks for the montreal Canadiens, and maybe this is why they haven't won a cup since 1993. You ready for this?? Its so bad, its almost funny.
Jose Charbonneau
Tom Chorske
Mark Pederson
Andrew Cassels
Eric Charron
Lindsay Vallis
Turner Stevenson
Brent Bilodeau
David Wilkie
Saku Koivu
Brad Brown
Terry Ryan
Matt Higgins
Jason Ward
Eric Chouinard
Ron Hainsey
Marcell Hossa
Thankfully it starts to get better
Mike Komisarek
Alexander Perezoghin- What's going on with him?? Is he ever coming back?
Chris Higgins
Andrei Kostitsyn
Kyle Chipchura
Carey Price
David Fischer
Ryan Mcdonagh
Max Pacioretty
Louis Leblanc
Jose Charbonneau
Tom Chorske
Mark Pederson
Andrew Cassels
Eric Charron
Lindsay Vallis
Turner Stevenson
Brent Bilodeau
David Wilkie
Saku Koivu
Brad Brown
Terry Ryan
Matt Higgins
Jason Ward
Eric Chouinard
Ron Hainsey
Marcell Hossa
Thankfully it starts to get better
Mike Komisarek
Alexander Perezoghin- What's going on with him?? Is he ever coming back?
Chris Higgins
Andrei Kostitsyn
Kyle Chipchura
Carey Price
David Fischer
Ryan Mcdonagh
Max Pacioretty
Louis Leblanc
For the Swedes here. You guys know these 2 mofos?
Andreas Engqvist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Engqvist
Mikael Johansson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Johansson_(ice_hockey_b._1985)
Andreas Engqvist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Engqvist
Mikael Johansson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Johansson_(ice_hockey_b._1985)
I didn't say that you thought Crosby shouldn't have gotten the captaincy because you support Detroit. I was just saying that in the end, the results are what matters. At the time, I didn't think that Crosby should have gotten the captaincy either, and generally a move of that type would be a huge mistake, but at this point, it's hard to say that it was a bad move for Pittsburgh.
I said that you dislike the player, the hype (maybe the Pens), more, because of the team you support.
Crosby is very young, and relied upon to be an offensive force. He's a very hard worker from what I hear, highly motivated to be the best, and over time I'm sure he'll come to be a responsible defensive player.
Unfortunately, I was only 1 when Stevie Y started playing as well, but for the purpose of discussion, I'm willing to go on what I have consistently heard from analysts (and interviews with Yzerman himself) about his early years, over the past 20 years or so of following the NHL.
If you want to use the +/- as an indicator of defensive competency/responsibility, which is certainly fair to an extent (you just can't take it as gospel; that's the point I was trying to get across... it can be misleading, although when the numbers are very positive, or very negative, it obviously indicates a trend, and can't be discounted), check out the +/- from Yzerman's first four full seasons in the league. -17, 0, -24, -1.
Again, there are variables in play such as team depth/quality, injuries, etc., so these numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt. However, given the points he was putting up, those numbers aren't great. They suggest a trend, but don't really tell the whole story.
I mean, I think we can all agree that Sergei Fedorov is a quality defensive forward (2 Selkes would prove that), but look at his +/- numbers from the last 7 years; only once was he above 0. This is mostly down to his teams, and injuries, but it's not as though he is no longer considered a good two way player. Even if he's off to Russia.
I definitely never said that +/- "doesn't reveal some truth behind the defensive displays by some players." No way... clearly you can use it as a tool, to help discern certain trends. I'm just saying that a great deal of the time, it can be misleading, and one has to temper their reliance on +/- as a defining number, by looking at the other variables that can be in play.
As for your suggestion the Cros and Malkin generally play with the best defensive units, etc., that's a bit too general. There were many points in time last year where those guys were getting double shifted all over the place; it was totally scattered.
The Pens IMO didn't have a great defense by any stretch of the imagination last year, anyway. Their best defender (who I love - Gonch) is an offensive minded player, and missed basically the entire season and even part of the playoffs. Whitney was hurt and then traded. Hal Gill blows monkey balls. Letang was hurt, and or played RW for a lot of the season. Orpik and Scuderi are solid 3,4,5, type of of guys, depending on the team. Their defense was not impressive (at least for me) in the least.
So these guys (Cros and Malkin) are often tired (due to playing in the vast majority of important situations), relied upon for nearly all of the teams scoring, playing with guys who are not able to read or react to their vision, etc.
Anyway, you know this Andy, and I'm rambling a bit. I think, generally speaking,
we agree that the two main players in question could be better defensively. I think we can also both agree that when highly touted, high volume scorers come into the league, most of the time they are told to focus primarily on their offense for the first part of their career (which is overwhelmingly the case in this situation, as almost all of Pittsburgh's offense comes from these two in some form or another), and then they gradually work on the finer points of defending as the years go on.
When you always have the puck, and are relied upon to do all of your team's scoring because your team is unbalanced, and you're very young, turnovers are going to be relatively, or very, high. Even if you play on a good team, if you play heavy minutes and are relied on for high volume scoring, you'll give the puck away a good amount. It doesn't matter what sport you play, this trend is quite often present. I mean, look at the guys who lead that list for 08/09: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/200809/playergiveaway.php
(I'm not all that familiar with this site, but these are generally the types of players who fill these lists anyway, so here goes)
Kovalchuck
Malkin
Crosby
Wideman
Ballard
Roy
Savard
Spezza
Chara
Ovechkin
Richards
Green
Markov
etc
Yes please... with the exception of roughly 3-4 players, these are guys that ANY team in the league would absolutely love to have.
I said that you dislike the player, the hype (maybe the Pens), more, because of the team you support.
Crosby is very young, and relied upon to be an offensive force. He's a very hard worker from what I hear, highly motivated to be the best, and over time I'm sure he'll come to be a responsible defensive player.
Unfortunately, I was only 1 when Stevie Y started playing as well, but for the purpose of discussion, I'm willing to go on what I have consistently heard from analysts (and interviews with Yzerman himself) about his early years, over the past 20 years or so of following the NHL.
If you want to use the +/- as an indicator of defensive competency/responsibility, which is certainly fair to an extent (you just can't take it as gospel; that's the point I was trying to get across... it can be misleading, although when the numbers are very positive, or very negative, it obviously indicates a trend, and can't be discounted), check out the +/- from Yzerman's first four full seasons in the league. -17, 0, -24, -1.
Again, there are variables in play such as team depth/quality, injuries, etc., so these numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt. However, given the points he was putting up, those numbers aren't great. They suggest a trend, but don't really tell the whole story.
I mean, I think we can all agree that Sergei Fedorov is a quality defensive forward (2 Selkes would prove that), but look at his +/- numbers from the last 7 years; only once was he above 0. This is mostly down to his teams, and injuries, but it's not as though he is no longer considered a good two way player. Even if he's off to Russia.
I definitely never said that +/- "doesn't reveal some truth behind the defensive displays by some players." No way... clearly you can use it as a tool, to help discern certain trends. I'm just saying that a great deal of the time, it can be misleading, and one has to temper their reliance on +/- as a defining number, by looking at the other variables that can be in play.
As for your suggestion the Cros and Malkin generally play with the best defensive units, etc., that's a bit too general. There were many points in time last year where those guys were getting double shifted all over the place; it was totally scattered.
The Pens IMO didn't have a great defense by any stretch of the imagination last year, anyway. Their best defender (who I love - Gonch) is an offensive minded player, and missed basically the entire season and even part of the playoffs. Whitney was hurt and then traded. Hal Gill blows monkey balls. Letang was hurt, and or played RW for a lot of the season. Orpik and Scuderi are solid 3,4,5, type of of guys, depending on the team. Their defense was not impressive (at least for me) in the least.
So these guys (Cros and Malkin) are often tired (due to playing in the vast majority of important situations), relied upon for nearly all of the teams scoring, playing with guys who are not able to read or react to their vision, etc.
Anyway, you know this Andy, and I'm rambling a bit. I think, generally speaking,
we agree that the two main players in question could be better defensively. I think we can also both agree that when highly touted, high volume scorers come into the league, most of the time they are told to focus primarily on their offense for the first part of their career (which is overwhelmingly the case in this situation, as almost all of Pittsburgh's offense comes from these two in some form or another), and then they gradually work on the finer points of defending as the years go on.
When you always have the puck, and are relied upon to do all of your team's scoring because your team is unbalanced, and you're very young, turnovers are going to be relatively, or very, high. Even if you play on a good team, if you play heavy minutes and are relied on for high volume scoring, you'll give the puck away a good amount. It doesn't matter what sport you play, this trend is quite often present. I mean, look at the guys who lead that list for 08/09: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/200809/playergiveaway.php
(I'm not all that familiar with this site, but these are generally the types of players who fill these lists anyway, so here goes)
Kovalchuck
Malkin
Crosby
Wideman
Ballard
Roy
Savard
Spezza
Chara
Ovechkin
Richards
Green
Markov
etc
Yes please... with the exception of roughly 3-4 players, these are guys that ANY team in the league would absolutely love to have.