the new,improved,updated and completely irrelevant 2009-Cassano to Juve thread (7 Viewers)

[- vOnAm -]

Just because Treze missed most of the season, the Amauri deal was proved to be extra useful, but for this year alone, but i am not debating this, Amauri is a good player and since he got the chance, he did well. Thats fine and i am happy with it.
I am not accusing him, but the concept behind his arrival. The plan we had before we even had him. We didnt know Treze will lose the season, if he didnt, then one between him and Amauri would be wasted on the bench, at any case Iaquinta's role would be marginal, so Giovinco's. One of them would be wasted on the bench anyway. My point is that we should avoid having a luxury sub on the bench on the bench, i doesnt matter who that is, either DP,Treze, Iaquinta or Amauri.
It is a waste of resources to keep one of them on the bench and keep playing with Moli, Grygera and Marchionni as starters...
I dont criticize/blames the faces. Our boards decision were made and finished before the season started. Their decision included 2-3 luxury subs on the forward line and the particular gents in our wings. It doesnt matter who exactly would be injured/available,no one could predict that and thats irrelevant,
the point is that the 2-3 luxury sub rule would be valid no matter who that man was. See my point now?(hopefully)

I've seen ur point since post one of your argument. I know u feel it's better for us to have a stronger starting 11 than a strong bench. That is what it ultimately comes down to. That is where we differ greatly.

I don't underestimate the importance of squad depth.

Our board's strategy to go for depth was spot on and proven. That's my point.

Who would you have brought in instead of Amauri? A defender? A creative midfielder? who? And at what price?

Again you are arguing momentary performances, when i am arguing long term plans. The momentary performances are not directly depended on our managers pre-seasons choice. Thats our players form and our coaches duties and i am pleased with that, thats not my point...

You don't get my point, my whole argument from the start was to reason our board's purchases in the name of long term success. That is why we bought depth, that is why we waited until this year to finally say we will buy a champion.

Financially it was more feasible to buy a champion after our CL adventure. We have more income now, and more lure to the star players. Players see Juve can win the CL with a little bit of additional class and the star player might think it to be him.

Amauri and Iaquinta was for long term success IMO (whether as temporary fill in or not), which our board highlighted as 5 years since promotion. We are entering year 3 and are making good progress.

You can't argue that if Trez didn't get injured, if bla bla bla...... Teams buy depth as safety measure, reduce the risk of team meltdown through injuries.

We didn't know Trez would be injured, and for so long...
but we also didn't know whether Trez can stay healthy and fit for 1 whole season.

See now?

 

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[Cronios]

So you agreed that we sacrificed our long term plans for some momentary gain that never came...

Proven??? How?? We sacrificed our long term pland and we won nothing more fewer but better players would have won, with the extended help of our youngsters.

Depth is good, when added to a completed team, but we sacrificed starters to get depth. Starters by default will be able to help than subbers, because they will be able to upgraded our team every single time they are available, rather than only the time they are available and some other isnt. Particularly this year, our team was complete we already had depth to every position and we start replacing our weaklings with starters and turn them as sub for depth.
It was not a question of numbers and was only a choice of places.
The 2-3 players we bought and the 3 youngsters would be the depth added anyway.

At any case, we are now more than stacked up in many places and there are no excuses left. Its time to step replacing the mediocre starters with better players.
There are no more excuses left! Lets just wait and see if we will replace them, or smth else...

 

[Ibrahimovic9]

Cassano will finally arrive at Juve after all these years it seems.

 

[dogsarecute]

Yes world-class players are able to add something immediately but you can only buy one per year which means that that spot is covered but all the others are vulnerable. We could have added Daniel Alves but when Trezeguet or worse ADP gets injured, who will replace them? The search for reserves is done as you have mentioned, and it is really amazing how we went from having no subs to having good subs in all positions in 2 years, so we can now concentrate on better players. Do you think the results will change if we buy 1 world-class player a year? We have 4 to 5 positions in need of replacement and I doubt we would have fared much better strengthening only 20% of the team's maximum strength per year as opposed to increasing 30% of the team's average strength. I say results will be comparable for both ways of rebuilding if there are no serious injuries but to build up a squad like Man U's it will take much longer with your method.

 

[Seven]

What are you talking about? Is it like a FIFA rule?

 

[Alen]

Cronios, the momentary performances were much more important than the long term plan. I'm talking about these last two seasons.
Why can't you see that?

 

[Seven]

Come on, Alen. This is like my "I wonder" statements.

"Why can't you see that?" .. What do you expect him to say? That he's an idiot?

 

[Cronios]

Cronios, the momentary performances were much more important than the long term plan. I'm talking about these last two seasons.
Why can't you see that?

Because our announced priority wasnt those momentary priorities
and because those momentary priorities where marginally affected by our choices,
meaning that we sacrificed our long terms plans for nothing...

 

[Lion]

how did we sacrifice our long term plans?

as far as I know the plan was originally split into 2 points:

-build a new stadium: that is well underway. No issues here

-Restore Juve to where it was before Calciopoli: the board said during it's announcement it would take around 5 years to bring Juve back to former glory. so far he's been proven wrong, as we've reached our goals faster if you think about it. We've reached CL faster than expected, and we've become a Serie A top 4 competitor faster than expected. Next year, with with the arrival of the creative midfielder signing and a proper RB, we will actually have a squad that is able to launch serious challenge for both the CL and Serie A.

 

[Lo-Pan]

how did we sacrifice our long term plans?

as far as I know the plan was originally split into 2 points:

-build a new stadium: that is well underway. No issues here

-Restore Juve to where it was before Calciopoli: the board said during it's announcement it would take around 5 years to bring Juve back to former glory. so far he's been proven wrong, as we've reached our goals faster if you think about it. We've reached CL faster than expected, and we've become a Serie A top 4 competitor faster than expected. Next year, with with the arrival of the creative midfielder signing and a proper RB, we will actually have a squad that is able to launch serious challenge for both the CL and Serie A.

I am with you on these points, Lion.

we have made sterling PROGRESS. And while its very easy to slip into the routine of forgetting our demotion and dismemberment, once we take on board what happened to us, the players we lost, the money we lost, our present progress seems splendid.

I think many Juve supporters, myself included, at times, can't believe that we have players of a mediocre value such as Molinaro and Grygera, in our starting XI, because we are used to fielding a team of titans...It is hard to forget out history, but it seems easy to forget our demotion and the wide ranging effects that had on our club's fortunes, then and now, and for the immediate future.

 

[CalcioJuventus]

Because our announced priority wasnt those momentary priorities
and because those momentary priorities where marginally affected by our choices,
meaning that we sacrificed our long terms plans for nothing...

If anything I think our longterm plan is better now than it was before we got relegated when we had no long term plan. Now we have a serious youth team which is cranking out players who are actually good enought to use in our first team or to be sold to make profit. With players like Marchisio, Giovinco, Chiellini, De Ceglie and evne younger players like Immoblie and Daud we have clear indications of our future.

The season we got relegated with Capello we had a team full of veteran players all on longterm high paying contracts who we could get little from if we sold and whose performance was bound to deteriorate. I think in this way our demotion had a silver lining. We trimmed the fat. Ibrahimovic is the only player whose departure hurt us in the long run. Thuram was already losing it when he was here, Canna lost it by the time we made it back as can be seen by his shady Madrid performances, Vieira would have hardly played over the last few seasons (seen with his injuries at Inter), Emerson declined rapidly and we all knew it was coming given his dwindling fitness and sluggishness in the CL as the season went on, Zambrotta was about 30 when he left and we had gotten his best years.. he is still good but he peaked at Juve..

If we never got relegated we would have all these declining veterans who have super high salarys and dont want to give them up. We would have an even bigger problem replacing all of them with stars we have to buy then just replacing Nedved this season and Del Piero in a few... We have had time to develop youngsters and have a stadium plan underway (which may not be as grand as it could have if we never got relegated but still .. at least we are getting one)

Our youth team is already putting out top notch youngsters and we only really started focusing on it when we went down.. in a few seasons we will have a wealth of talent and top players ( when some of our current players mature). The outlook is not so bleak

 

[fender06]

If anything I think our longterm plan is better now than it was before we got relegated when we had no long term plan. Now we have a serious youth team which is cranking out players who are actually good enought to use in our first team or to be sold to make profit. With players like Marchisio, Giovinco, Chiellini, De Ceglie and evne younger players like Immoblie and Daud we have clear indications of our future.

The season we got relegated with Capello we had a team full of veteran players all on longterm high paying contracts who we could get little from if we sold and whose performance was bound to deteriorate. I think in this way our demotion had a silver lining. We trimmed the fat. Ibrahimovic is the only player whose departure hurt us in the long run. Thuram was already losing it when he was here, Canna lost it by the time we made it back as can be seen by his shady Madrid performances, Vieira would have hardly played over the last few seasons (seen with his injuries at Inter), Emerson declined rapidly and we all knew it was coming given his dwindling fitness and sluggishness in the CL as the season went on, Zambrotta was about 30 when he left and we had gotten his best years.. he is still good but he peaked at Juve..

If we never got relegated we would have all these declining veterans who have super high salarys and dont want to give them up. We would have an even bigger problem replacing all of them with stars we have to buy then just replacing Nedved this season and Del Piero in a few... We have had time to develop youngsters and have a stadium plan underway (which may not be as grand as it could have if we never got relegated but still .. at least we are getting one)

Our youth team is already putting out top notch youngsters and we only really started focusing on it when we went down.. in a few seasons we will have a wealth of talent and top players ( when some of our current players mature). The outlook is not so bleak

If we never got relegated , we would still have Moggi here, i believe Moggi would know the problems u mention and he would be able to solve all.

 

[CalcioJuventus]

If we never got relegated , we would still have Moggi here, i believe Moggi would know the problems u mention and he would be able to solve all.

It does not change the fact we would have needed top class replacements for several players which is expensive. Moggi signed players based on the funds available.. I think we would not have been able to replace all these playes but simply a few of them while getting as much as possible out of the rest as we are doing now with Nedved. People have deified Moggi to the extent that they make it seem as if he was a god who could solve any problem. Even he had trouble making us competitive with the English sides in his last few seasons here and he too made some errors signing players (Leggro, Vieira, Kapo..). To say we would not have had problems if we simply still had Moggi is naive.

 

[Ibrahimovic9]

I honestly dont see how people put Molinaro and Grygera on the same level. Molinaro is a football god to Grygera.

 

[Cronios]

how did we sacrifice our long term plans?

as far as I know the plan was originally split into 2 points:

-build a new stadium: that is well underway. No issues here

-Restore Juve to where it was before Calciopoli: the board said during it's announcement it would take around 5 years to bring Juve back to former glory. so far he's been proven wrong, as we've reached our goals faster if you think about it. We've reached CL faster than expected, and we've become a Serie A top 4 competitor faster than expected. Next year, with with the arrival of the creative midfielder signing and a proper RB, we will actually have a squad that is able to launch serious challenge for both the CL and Serie A.

The stadium was rather an opportunity rather than priority we should never sacrifice the progress of building up our team, after the greatest fall in our history at this very moment!! The stadium is working in parallel with our build up plans. If it is antagonistic, then we have one more major mistake to confront!!

And for the five year plan, check out the money we spent, check out our roster and see how many starters we added for our long term plans. In the way we are upgrading, we would need 10 years to make the targeted competitive team, rather than the 5 announced...
Honestly, do you really think that we had no chances to realistically reach on of the 4 CL qualification position in the first year we got back?? Some were dreaming for the tittle and you claim that we were not even worthy of the 4#??
Or you are claiming that the choices of our management and Andrade,Iaquinta,Almiron and Tiago were essential and actually gave us that position??? What this argument has to do with our planning ahead??
And since we already reached the CL qualifiers, what was our priority then?? What did we do from there?? Why didnt we start adding starters from this season??? The youngsters were coming anyway and two players of the quality of Amauri and Poulsen, on our wings or wingbacks, would have helped us to achieve what we achieved now and set the bases for a more competitive team in the future, having two persistent issues of our team fixed!

If anything I think our longterm plan is better now than it was before we got relegated when we had no long term plan. Now we have a serious youth team which is cranking out players who are actually good enought to use in our first team or to be sold to make profit. With players like Marchisio, Giovinco, Chiellini, De Ceglie and evne younger players like Immoblie and Daud we have clear indications of our future.

The season we got relegated with Capello we had a team full of veteran players all on longterm high paying contracts who we could get little from if we sold and whose performance was bound to deteriorate. I think in this way our demotion had a silver lining. We trimmed the fat. Ibrahimovic is the only player whose departure hurt us in the long run. Thuram was already losing it when he was here, Canna lost it by the time we made it back as can be seen by his shady Madrid performances, Vieira would have hardly played over the last few seasons (seen with his injuries at Inter), Emerson declined rapidly and we all knew it was coming given his dwindling fitness and sluggishness in the CL as the season went on, Zambrotta was about 30 when he left and we had gotten his best years.. he is still good but he peaked at Juve..

If we never got relegated we would have all these declining veterans who have super high salarys and dont want to give them up. We would have an even bigger problem replacing all of them with stars we have to buy then just replacing Nedved this season and Del Piero in a few... We have had time to develop youngsters and have a stadium plan underway (which may not be as grand as it could have if we never got relegated but still .. at least we are getting one)

Our youth team is already putting out top notch youngsters and we only really started focusing on it when we went down.. in a few seasons we will have a wealth of talent and top players ( when some of our current players mature). The outlook is not so bleak

Marchisio, Giovinco, Chiellini, De Ceglie were ours anyway, the chose not to use them optimally, we chose to under-use them, but there potential was always there to harvest because the previous board ensured that.
This board has nothing to do with that. Their duty was to add more players to upgraded our team. And this is exactly where we need to focus regarding their role and their duties. What did their additions offered more than our champions and promising youngsters wouldnt?? Nothing!!!

The relegation was a fact, many mistakes were made by this board before and after that.
Its not the place to discuss them here and dont get me started on this.
At any case Mutu and Balza were very late and very...avoidable...
And they did hurt as both in short and long terms!

But when we got back, we put that behind and promised to plan ahead.
We are not arguing the performances here, but our planning, what did our planning offered to this team??

 

[dogsarecute]

And for the five year plan, check out the money we spent, check out our roster and see how many starters we added for our long term plans. In the way we are upgrading, we would need 10 years to make the targeted competitive team, rather than the 5 announced...
Honestly, do you really think that we had no chances to realistically reach on of the 4 CL qualification position in the first year we got back?? Some were dreaming for the tittle and you claim that we were not even worthy of the 4#??

Marchisio, Giovinco, Chiellini, De Ceglie were ours anyway, the chose not to use them optimally, we chose to under-use them, but there potential was always there to harvest because the previous board ensured that.
This board has nothing to do with that. Their duty was to add more players to upgraded our team. And this is exactly where we need to focus regarding their role and their duties. What did their additions offered more than our champions and promising youngsters wouldnt?? Nothing!!!

We could dream of the title in the first year? I thought someone claimed Juventus would be in 7th position. I don't think anybody thought it was realistic. A dream yes, but there is only a .01% chance of that happening.

We have added many starters or potential starters. Andrade, if fit, could fit in the CB role. Criscito has potential as LB or CB. De Ceglie can make a good LM or LB with more training. Marchisio, Giovinco are already established. With regards to buys, Sissoko is starter material, so is Poulsen but unfortunately the CM slot is crowded; Amauri is a starter while Iaquinta looks to be the same standard or even better than the likes of Kuyt and Adebayor.

So the only slots that we are weak in are:CB if Andrade injures himself again, RM if Camo goes on another injury spree, RB and LM. The pressing concerns are RB and LM. A LM would be bought this year, and if there are spare funds, a RB can come next year. A new RB might resurrect Marchionni by giving him support so a new RM might not be needed. So if we are fortunate, we only need to buy 2 more players.

The management should be given credit for the youngsters' development. There is no use having promising players if you are not going to play them. Real Madrid sent so many young players away and never benefited from them. We had Henry and played him in the wrong position. Would you have given these young players a chance? You asked for established names and use these young players as reserves. Sooner or later, they will all leave the club and only Giovinco will be left, and that only because he took the world by storm in previous seasons.

The management will undoubtedly disappoint you year after year I am afraid. They already mentioned that the new Juventus will be built around youths. So between a young player who could be world-class and a world-class player, the former will always be favoured.

 

[neurosis21]

how did we sacrifice our long term plans?

as far as I know the plan was originally split into 2 points:

-build a new stadium: that is well underway. No issues here

-Restore Juve to where it was before Calciopoli: the board said during it's announcement it would take around 5 years to bring Juve back to former glory. so far he's been proven wrong, as we've reached our goals faster if you think about it. We've reached CL faster than expected, and we've become a Serie A top 4 competitor faster than expected. Next year, with with the arrival of the creative midfielder signing and a proper RB, we will actually have a squad that is able to launch serious challenge for both the CL and Serie A.

i agree with you
but in all fairness this better and faster than expected progress is down to the failure of our opponents as well. i dont think too many ppl expect roma and milan to be this bad this year

 

[Lo-Pan]

I honestly dont see how people put Molinaro and Grygera on the same level. Molinaro is a football god to Grygera.

You have strange eyes OR you don't understand the game. To suggest such a gap between two very average players is ridiculous.

Thuram is a football god to grygera, not Molinaro. I am not talking just about position, but mainly talent in his field of expertise.

I have seen Grygera perform solidly in as many games as I have seen Molinaro do the same. Neither of them have excelled this season. Neither would be considered for the squad as a whole, let alone the first teams of the top team in europe.

I prefer Grygera, because he can pass more accurately...but still...he is fairly wretched.

Molinaro cannot pass, his tackling is weak, he resorts to fouls when he is continually skinned in a game. I don't see what he brings to the team other than a flash of pace now and then...

 

[Fred]

i agree with you
but in all fairness this better and faster than expected progress is down to the failure of our opponents as well. i dont think too many ppl expect roma and milan to be this bad this year

That is true.

 

[Hust]

With Cassano not being picked by Lippi: I think this is going to be a good test of his character, to see how he reacts to not being selected again by the Azzurri. Will he self-destruct or continue to perform in Serie A? I am curious to see his reaction.