the new,improved,updated and completely irrelevant 2009-Cassano to Juve thread (7 Viewers)

Azzurri7

Pinturicchio
Moderator
Dec 16, 2003
72,692
Cron, as much as I love you, I have to admit that Alen is spot on so is Jack.

The way you see things and make assumptions tends to be far from reality sometimes. I don't know how to say it, but you see things that is far far from what is happening or what will happen, specially when you analyze things, such as the Molinaro case when you denied that he hasn't improved and he was voted player of the month [Feb]? and that he was only voted because people felt sorry for him.

I admire your efforts to your posts but sometimes you should remove "conspiracy" from your book my man.
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
OMG guys, you are missing my point again...hello, how many times i have to repeat my self, i dont bash Iaquinta's and Amauri's and Cassano's acquisition individually, i am not bashing their quality either.
and as i said, i dont argue performances, in the short run, we rather sacrifice them anyway, for our long term plans.

And i repeat once more, a team with 2 quality forward starters, 3 mediocre starter defenders and 3 quality forward subbers is better than a team, with 2 quality forward starters, 3 mediocre starter defenders and just 2 quality starters. Of course it is, i am not arguing that...its logic that we are better than last year.
But thats not the point here, the point is, this team is not better than a team with 2 quality starters and 3 quality defenders, thats what you are defending here...geez...
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,941
OMG, you are missing my point again...
As i said, i dont argue performances.
I didn't miss your point at all. I wasn't replying to the main point of yours, i was replying to the part where you said that with the striker signings we're undermining the benefit of the previous striker signings.


But thats not the point here, it could, point is, it is not better than a team with 2 quality starters and 3 quality defenders, thats what you defending here...
I agree with you. I agree about Juve's defense.
But didn't you think that Ranieri and the directors maybe think how our defense is more than ok?
We're investing in the attack, we're investing in midfield, but we don't invest in the backline.
You and me think that they're wrong if they think that way, but they think that they're right. At least the numbers say that our defense is doing great.
So why are you so sure that we are right and they are wrong? Maybe it's the two of us who are wrong.

And i wanna ask you this. If we didn't spend the money on Amauri and we did a more logical thing and we bought John Terry........ what do you think would have been different this year for us?
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
Cronios, why do you go on and on calling the Amauri transfer a waste when he has been so pivitol! You say it cancels out Iaquinta's transfer but look at what has taken place man, So regardless of what you say, the board were ultimately correct. Regardless of whether it was luck or planned strategy, u can't bash them for actions that end up being right.
Just because Treze missed most of the season, the Amauri deal was proved to be extra useful, but for this year alone, but i am not debating this, Amauri is a good player and since he got the chance, he did well. Thats fine and i am happy with it.
I am not accusing him, but the concept behind his arrival. The plan we had before we even had him. We didnt know Treze will lose the season, if he didnt, then one between him and Amauri would be wasted on the bench, at any case Iaquinta's role would be marginal, so Giovinco's. One of them would be wasted on the bench anyway. My point is that we should avoid having a luxury sub on the bench on the bench, i doesnt matter who that is, either DP,Treze, Iaquinta or Amauri.
It is a waste of resources to keep one of them on the bench and keep playing with Moli, Grygera and Marchionni as starters...
I dont criticize/blames the faces. Our boards decision were made and finished before the season started. Their decision included 2-3 luxury subs on the forward line and the particular gents in our wings. It doesnt matter who exactly would be injured/available,no one could predict that and thats irrelevant,
the point is that the 2-3 luxury sub rule would be valid no matter who that man was. See my point now?(hopefully)

You make arguments that we haven't improved much but like jck said, we are doing much better than last year, considering the competitions we are in.
I don't mind Ranieri's reluctance to change formations too often or completely leave the 4-4-2
Again you are arguing momentary performances, when i am arguing long term plans. The momentary performances are not directly depended on our managers pre-seasons choice. Thats our players form and our coaches duties and i am pleased with that, thats not my point...

Because if we are "building" a team, we establish a system and find players to suit it. (at least that's one way of doing it)
Only occasionally changing formations to suit specific strategy.
My point is that we get more consistent results when we have a fixed formation. Everybody knows how to move and in which directions.
The compactness we have on the field shows this. U can see we often clearly lack quality but yet as a unit/team we are hard to defeat.
Ultimately, Gio is the victim. And thats y I think Ranieri didn't play him that often. But now, IMO, he has no other choice that to utilize him more and more.
Agreed, but it doent mean that we wouldnt have done even better if we had even better starters in the places, we have extremely limited starters...
Our spirit is admirable, i am also proud of it as you are, but it is a pity that we lack the right "tools"to make it count for smth...
I will justify that.
First of all, lets make it clear that Iaquinta is much much better player than Zalayeta. Zala was never anything more than an utility striker while Iaquinta was a world cup winner, who maybe isn't good enough to be a sure starter in the best teams, but is a striker that every top class team would like to have in the squad.
I whole-heartily disagree, if Zalayeta was born Italian, he would have been world cup winner too, its not like Iaquinta made a difference there...
One was Italian+starter=> hyped and the other was a 4th choice sub=> under-rated...

In the summer of 2007 we had Del Piero and Trezeguet. Zalayeta and Palladino weren't players you'd like to have as replacement if Del Piero or Trez are injured for longer period.
We simply had to have the third good striker in the team. We couldn't just take a risk and buy some youngster with potential, we couldn't just rely on Zala and Palladino, Bojinov didn't prove himself even in serie B and we didn't want to pay 8m to Fiorentina to keep him, and we certainly couldn't spend 20-30m for a top class attacker in 2007. We needed someone who was able to show up when needed. Someone who will do the job in this transition period of 2-3 years. Iaquinta was that guy and he proved himself as such. We didn't buy Iaquinta to be our leading striker in the future. We got him to be our quality on the bench who could temporarily successfully replace our quality on the pitch.
Our starters were DP+Treze anyway, we couldnt rely on Zala so as we couldnt rely on Iaquinta anyway, we could have called Giovinco then, keep Zala and Palla.
We never gave them enough chances to be proved incompetent, thats mostly because we preferred Iaquinta, if Iaquinta wasnt present, we would be forced to trust and use them more extensively, thus making him more effective!!
There were many places in our team, we lacked starters like DP+Treze and subs like Zala, Giovinco and Palla. We couldnt afford to fix them all. We should fix our starters first!! Iaq was never a priority. We never had the chances to compete for the title anyway. If it wasnt for Neddy and DP heroic performances we would reach were we reached. Iaq helped a lot less than we suffered from the cheap choices we made on the midfield and defense. Those issues could be fixed if he wasnt bought instead of them. And those foxes could be even available up until this day. We were planning to invest the majority of our transfer budget on Amauri anyway next year(the choice was made even before the season ended) and Cassano right after that... That would mean, that wouldnt have any better time to focus on our defensive issues.

Summer of 2008
- We made it to CL (or we were close to making it because we were in the qualifiers). We knew that this year we won't have a week rest between the matches and we knew that this year we needed to improve our position in serie A also. We weren't playing only to secure CL qualification. We wanted to try and play for the scudetto this time and compete everywhere we play.
Having a 34 years old Del Piero, having a guy who gets a serious injury every second year and who is 31 and having Iaquinta may not be enough to achieve all this. We need more.
We finally have the money to get ourselves more quality in attack. Someone who can easily be a starter and score the needed goals.
Voila, we buy Amauri.
Amauri does great and Iaquinta keeps doing his job in the meantime. Whatever happened, we had top quality in attack no matter who plays there.
Again, we were not going for the title anyway,the gap of quality between us and Inter cannot be reached within a season, we already had a complete team, we should start focusing on building up this team, as we announced. We should start adding quality players in order to materialize the five year plan. The CL were secured due the lack of competition. The team we had last year, with an addition of two starters would achieve the same, those 2 extra starters and our 3 Moggi wonder youngsters would provide the extra depth we needed for those 3 competitions. If we sacrificed our long term plans to have better chances for titles this year, then we failed twice, both on short and long term plans...

Summer of 2009
- Del Piero is close to 35, Trez spent most of the season injured (which wasn't a surprise).
If we buy Cassano we won't undermine the benefits of Amauri and Iaquinta (who btw did his job in the transition period and can now be sold), we will do it because there are huge chances that our main two strikers won't be able to win us trophies anymore.
We knew that DP was going to be 35 by now, we knew that some long time ago, we knew that when we were buying Iaquinta and we also new that when we were buying Amauri:shifty: It is that its just happened all of a sudden, it was bound to happen as time passes by. Thats why we should fix our other issues first and then focus on this one when the time comes. Did we fix it?? No. then wtf were doing back then??? Where is the vision?? What were we thiking when we were buying Iaquinta and Amauri? Did we knew that they wont be DP's successor and we will be forced to buy one more when he retires? Then we did we sacrificed the previous seasons??

You know my stance in Cassano's case. I also don't think we should make him our main purchase if we keep the 4-4-2. But in your post you made it sound that by buying Cassano (and previously Amauri) the board is admiting the mistakes done in the summer of 2007 and 2008 when they bought Iaquinta (Amauri). I'm telling you that you are wrong.
Why? Since we knew we were buying Cassano in the first place, whats the point of buying Iaquinta? To sell him??
Whats the point of bringing back Giovinco, to loan him out next year?
Gigli said there will be no major departures, putting my theory that a Trez sale would fund Cassano to rest. I still think Cassano is NOT the Nedved replacement, and I'm curious how were going to afford him.
Cassano cannot be Neddy's replacement, unless we change to 4-3-3, Neddy's replacement could be a fine excuse to acquire a player we dont urgently need though...
Now lets just agree on a one simple fact... accusations of : Amauri, Iaquinta, Sissoko and Manninger were great moves.
Anyone thinking otherwise is insane.
Individually yes, BUT acquiring Iaquinta, since we had had in mind that we are buying Amauri next year and DP's successor the year after that, whilst sacrificing our needs in other places in the mean was a mistake...

Sissoko should have been bought from the first place, but we rather chose to buy 2 cheaper players in order to save some more money for Iaquinta instead.
And then we had no CB to field and no RM either(we were forced to field Nocerino), we chose to make the would have been right choice at the wrong time...

Manningher was the wisest choice this board has ever done!! Thank God:xfinger:
the Molinaro case when you denied that he hasn't improved and he was voted player of the month [Feb]? and that he was only voted because people felt sorry for him.
Molinaro has been the worst player performance wise we had last year
and the worst starter i have ever seen in my life with Juve's jersey.
The saddest part of this issue is that he is soooo limited, that he can never be a useful player to a competitive team. So i bashed him for his harmful performances last year and mostly because of his absent potential, that threatened not only that season, but also our future!
Molinaro has been improved his teamwork and has gained a lot of confidence.
Since the summer preparation i ceased bashing his performances and i do tolerate his presence since he is less harmful this year. What i keep criticizing even now, is still his potential. I still think it is a waste of time to insist with him, but i dont bash him for his performances, on the contrary, i even defended him this season, even against Alen:shocked: Yes that actually happened!!

I am still very upset to see how much some of his half decent performances are over-hyped that much. There are some certain reasons Moli is less harmful this year and none of them indicates that we should tolerate his lack of talent and hope that he will become Juve material some time in the future!
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare him with the Milano based fullbacks and claim that he is even remotely close to their level. The votes he got then prove nothing more than empathy...
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
I agree with you. I agree about Juve's defense.
But didn't you think that Ranieri and the directors maybe think how our defense is more than ok?
We're investing in the attack, we're investing in midfield, but we don't invest in the backline.
You and me think that they're wrong if they think that way, but they think that they're right. At least the numbers say that our defense is doing great.
So why are you so sure that we are right and they are wrong? Maybe it's the two of us who are wrong.
Actually no, i am sure that you are smarter than them, they are wrong and you are right!

And please dont remind me the numbers, we had an extensive discussion of how than can cloak some things and misguide others. Our defenders individually have proved their quality and they were totally exposed when fielded without Chiellini, even your numbers proved that point then.
Statistics can prove any theory(at least in my field of studies) if taken out of context. To properly judge what actually happened in a just one match we need to take billion of numbers in account. Just the scoreline alone is not enough...
So those numbers tell only a part of the truth.
For ex. a 1-0 from another 1-0 win may differ way too much, considering what actually happened on the field to obtain that result, we cant just make a proper simplistic evaluation and comparison, only by reading those numbers alone.
Alen, we were both present in the live threads of the majority, if not all the matches this year, didnt you notice how easily our defense conceded when the rest of our team pulls back and expects from them to make the game?
When we are pushing back our opponents, it is normal that they cant attack us effectively, since we are a stronger team, but when the defense is called for the job, they fail...
Also against the superior team, in important matches, where the opposition plays carefully, you can easily notice how the try and manage to exploit our weaknesses. And thats none other, than our defense...
Not to mention the limited tactical choices we have due to the lack of skills our fullbacks have, than cannot be easily read by the numbers either (unless you have the attempted/successful crosses Grygera and Moli tried to make, before CR decided that it would be better to forbid them of trying that on a real match:lol:
And i wanna ask you this. If we didn't spend the money on Amauri and we did a more logical thing and we bought John Terry........ what do you think would have been different this year for us?
This year? I expected nothing more from this year, i already feel that we have overachieved, the only thing i wanted to stay from this year was a couple of starters in our team and with the addition of two more next year, a competitive team then. In that regard, as far as i am concerned we failed...
Someone may argue that we have won a starter to Amauri, but i believe we made a new one to Treze and that was bound to happen even if Treze was fit and available. If Treze was fully fit and Amauri had less chances and remained a sub instead. That would still made no difference to my book. One way or the other, we were turning one of them to a sub for both this year and the next.
In the mean time we are still using Moli,Grygera and Marchionni as starters by choice, i warned about this from the beginning of the season, i accept no excuses here. And if we make no changes here we are also keep going like this for the next season too...by choice...:frown:

If we keep using those 3 as starters and bring Cassano instead of Iaquinta or even worse, instead of Treze, then i expect us to achieve nothing more than we achieved this season... I expect to see one more wasted season, as this one was deemed wasted from the very beginning of the season.
We will keep pushing forward with the same intensity and we will keep suffering backwards with the same calamity...
Adding Cassano is better that adding no one. Adding Cassano is better than adding a forward lesser than Cassano, but adding a Cassano quality/value winger/wingback is def much better than adding Cassano... because that would maximize the impact/effect of the upgrade. I believe you agree on that...
 
Dec 26, 2004
10,656
I believe Cassano can be much more effective than Diego in such formation

Buffon
Zuniga Zapata Chiellini Molinaro
Marchisio Tiago Sissoko
Cassano Del/Gio
Amauri

That's what I would call a great mercato replace Tiago with Hamsik and it would even be ideal:D
 

dogsarecute

Senior Member
Aug 7, 2008
525
You prefer having 1 world-class acquisition instead of buying a few subs and getting world-class players in areas we are strong in. That is good in the pre-Calciopoli days. However in this era, we are not strong in many areas.

As said Del Piero is already 34 while Trezeguet is 32. Ryan Giggs has a big drop in form a few years ago and even Man U fans are crying for him to be benched. The management will surely have known that this might happen to ADP and they must prepare for it. Then if ADP is the one injured instead of Trezeguet, we will be left with Iaquinta, Trezeguet and Giovinco and we can certainly predict what creativity this strikeforce will bring--none. By bringing in Amauri, we do not need to spend twice the amount getting Benzema or Villa in the near future, and this money can be better spent elsewhere. Amauri is available at a reasonable price, so it is the right time to strike. In addition, he is a target man who can hold the ball, which is a player we do not have now. He is not the traditional sub. Rather, he offers Ranieri more choice with regards to selection. If CR needs a scorer, he calls Trezeguet. If CR needs someone strong in the air, he calls Amauri. If ADP or Trezeguet gets injured, since Amauri is reasonable clinical and skilful, he can fulfil both roles. Palladino only dribbles and lose the ball so he offers nothing offensively or defensively unlike Molinaro who can defend well most of the time and his speed allows him to catch up with wingers who have gotten past him. Iaquinta is a good player and I am happy to have him. He is quite cheap for the amount of goals he can get.

CB wise, we have already invested 17m in Criscito and Andrade. Isn't it better to see what they can bring? If they are good and we have spent another 30m buying a world-class CB, then they will sit on the bench, which is something I doubt they will tolerate, so we will have to sell them cheap. There is also Ariaudo which we can try. If all of them are bad, then by all means by a good CB. Only Agger is available now I think so we will not overpay if we buy the CB in the following year's transfer window instead of the coming season's. I believe we must take chances even if we are Juventus, although this is contrary to your belief, especially so since the risks are not high and the rewards are big.

I agree with everyone that we must improve our fullbacks. However who could we buy to replace Molinaro anyway? Grygera is crap the whole of this season but he has some good performances last season and with the national team so we cannot say for sure if he will ever play good.

The last factor, I will say the most important, is what will happen if the world-class acquisition gets injured for a long time. Accidents do happen. Sissoko and Essien, both big and strong and seemingly invulnerable are both unavailable this season for considerable periods. Besides the hole left behind by the world-class player, if any players for other positions are injured at the same time, which actually occurs quite often this season, then we will be playing with Nocerino's and Palladino's and we usually lose or draw when these players play isn't it? Assuming your world-class team is complete in five seasons and nothing major happened, you need to buy reserves and they could cost 30m in total easily if they are all average.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,941
I believe Cassano can be much more effective than Diego in such formation

Buffon
Zuniga Zapata Chiellini Molinaro
Marchisio Tiago Sissoko
Cassano Del/Gio
Amauri
Exactly what i said only 2 days ago (and surprisingly, Cronios even liked it, even though my formation had Molinaro in it :D )

With Zuniga you have good attacking quality from one of the full backs, required in a 4-3-2-1, while both Zuniga and Cassano are from smaller serie A teams with which you could do some player exchange deals and save a lot of money to buy a better CB than Mellberg and Legro.
Your choice is Zapata while i didn't name the new CB. That's the only difference in our formations, but everything else is the same.

What i wanna say is that i like how you think :p
 
Dec 26, 2004
10,656
@ dogsarecute: That's a lame logic saying we better many midcore players instead of one world class player because if he got injured we will be screwed.

That's like saying don't buy a BMW because incase of accident you will lose your only car... buy 3-4 KIAs.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
116,016
@ dogsarecute: That's a lame logic saying we better many midcore players instead of one world class player because if he got injured we will be screwed.

That's like saying don't buy a BMW because incase of accident you will lose your only car... buy 3-4 KIAs.
:lol2:

Exactly.

And when that poster stated we should "see what Andrade can do" I just started laughing as well. I mean yeah, lets send him out on a wheelchair and see what he can do.
 
Dec 26, 2004
10,656
Exactly what i said only 2 days ago (and surprisingly, Cronios even liked it, even though my formation had Molinaro in it :D )

With Zuniga you have good attacking quality from one of the full backs, required in a 4-3-2-1, while both Zuniga and Cassano are from smaller serie A teams with which you could do some player exchange deals and save a lot of money to buy a better CB than Mellberg and Legro.
Your choice is Zapata while i didn't name the new CB. That's the only difference in our formations, but everything else is the same.

What i wanna say is that i like how you think :p
:kiss:
 

only-juve

Senior Member
Jan 5, 2008
7,451
@ Cron: I believe Cassano can fit perfectly in a 4-3-2-1 formation, if we are planning to change the system his accusation can prove ideal.
If we're going to play with that formation then signing cassano would be a great move.

But the worst-case Scenario and the thing that i really REALLY hope we don't end up doing is signing cassano for a huge sum and with the left overs will try to sign a winger to replace nedved (someone who's unwanted by he's club and we can get for a cheap "malouda") and we'll still field a 4-4-2 formation next season.

That wouldn't be a strange move by the board because we allready did a similar move last summer with amauri and poulsen !!
 

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