the new,improved,updated and completely irrelevant 2009-Cassano to Juve thread (6 Viewers)

[Sadomin]

What?? give me an example...

From the way our owners invest and our managers choose, i think this [the UEFA cup] is our target next year. No matter if we bring in VDV and Barzagli, we cant do better than position number 3 in serie A, (positions 1-2 will be occupied by the Milan clubs and Roma), two players are not enough to do the difference when they are surrounded by...Lucchinis and Molinaros...
We wont be able to compete the Milan clubs like that and we might not be able to pass the groups in CL, so going far in Uefa cup is a realistic target and wouldnt harm us anyway...
More TV rights, coverage, commercial, sponsors etc
We cannot attract big sponsors being 3rd and being disqualified before x-mas from the CL, so going far to the Uefa CUP isnt necessarily a bad thing
But still, i m not confident that these players are good enough for this job either,
have you seen Sevilla's or Benfica's subs??

Zala is 10 times the player Iaquinta is.

If you dig into my or anyone elses posting backgrounds, you will find all kinds of amusing and incorrect claims as well. The point is, if you can't admit you are wrong your opinions lose a lot of value.

It's a shame because you're one of the few here who make a real effort when posting, and your posts are worth reading.

 

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[Lo-Pan]

We have often done well playing the 4-3-3 and as I have mentioned earlier, Ranieri has played a similar system for Parma recently with great results.

I reckon that there are two reasons for his stubbornness with the 4-4-2. The protection of Giovinco not one of them;

1. Nedved, like Alen said above. We all know how he is on the pitch, but that Ekdal interview really portrayed what a character he is off the pitch as well. He's a winner and a leader, and even when he is not playing well his mere presence is of psychological value.

Considering Nedved is likely to retire this summer, Ranieri could also be playing him out of sympathy. Not impossible considering Claudio's personality.

2. Knowing our fullbacks are weak, he saw it necessary to play with four midfielders for both attacking and defensive support. Even when you play Giovinco on the right instead of Marchionni, something I and many others wanted, he will only be useful if you give him some freedom. And that would counteract the whole idea.

Ranieri considers the two wide players on each side as a pairing (rather than relying on their individual skills) allowing us to get away with using inferior players there.

This would mean that he recognises the problem. We will only know how he thinks after the summer mercato, judging by the players acquired.

I can see clearly the truth of your first point, Sadomin, but the second point doesn't feel or look correct.

If he knew that our fullbacks were weak...all of them, Molinaro, De Ceglie, Mellberg, Grygera, Zebina...he would surely have replaced them either last summer, or this january. With the exception of De Ceglie, who has grown as a player with every brief performance he has been allowed.

Its like you said about Nedved. He may have lost pace, power and skill, but his mere presence, its fierceness and determination, warrants inclusion in the starting XI. He brings something to the team...Sissoko's passing is often wretched, though he is improving, and he is fast enough to at least slow down enemy attacks created by his errors. Still, a terrible desitributor, at times, but...he is a monster, a beast, at times, often even, an un-passable man mountain. He brings something to the team.
Buffon, Amauri, Trez, Del Piero, Nedved, Camo, Tiago, Marchisio, Poulsen, Giovinco, Chiellini, Manninger, Zebina, Brazzo...even Legro and Mellberg...they all give something to the team. The Grygera, Molinaro, Marchionni group of bandits dont give the team anything positive to make up for their negative impact. They are like negative calorie foods...they use up more energy than they give...if we were on a diet, great, but we are not...

My point is...that those three have been with us a while. Two of them are guaranteed first team starters, as is marchionni whenever Camo is injured, which has been the majority of the season.

Those players should be back-up players. But we have them as stating players.

Even if we replace Grygera and Molinaro with two players around Zebina's standard, then we will be more secure next season. A stop gap measure I know, but Criscito or De Ceglie can challenge for the Left back spot. And Criscito can challenge Legro for the central defender spot.
Ideally we off-load Marchionni, Molinaro and Grygera.

But, for some reason, I get the impression that Ranieri s fixated on keeping Molinaro involved. We shall see, as De Ceglie is soon fit again. Perhaps our left back problem will be fixed by the summer.

Sticking to a 4-4-2 when you know you have weak fullbacks, and your left mid is a 36 year old, your right mid is an injury prone, but quality when fit, traitor argie, and their back-ups aren't great or are dead (De Ceglie, Marchionni, Brazzo,) or you just refuse to use until forced to by a terrible spate of injuries to the squad (Giovinco)...sticking to a 4-4-2 when you have players not just capable, but itching of playing in a 4-3-3, and your main wingers are injured...these plans are only stuck to by a madman, hellbent on breaking our hearts and souls, without reason or remorse...

Protection doesn't come from a 4-4-2 when you have shit wingers and shit fullbacks. what happens is the service to the front men is reduced to a trickle of half chances...

Its this failure to move from a dead 4-4-2 to a more dynamic formation, which has bothered me about Ranieri this season.

I don't doubt that he is capable of adopting other formations, as he did at parma, but why the hell is he so reluctant to do so, at Juve, when the players here are better, and the system could work to a far more devastating degree than it did at Parma...

 

[Cronios]

I never had problems of accepting my mistakes, i dont fear truth, the truth is my ally. I never go where the wing blows, i always stand firm behind my views and rarely change them. But i do change them if a good reason appears, the facts alone can convince me from that, it doesnt mean that i dont respect an opposite opinion though. On the contrary, thats the reason i interact with some you, if that was pointless, then i wouldnt...

We all have hopes for the best, i understand and respect this attitude.
The positive attitude gives strength to men and allows to go on. But at some certain cases, when i see that someone can do better than that, i would rather advice him to improve than remain delusional, sit back and hope for the best...
Juve is such an example, we can do better than that, we shouldnt be delusional that we can achieve anything with the current squad, because we cant.
If we didnt have the option/abilities to do better, i would let ppl dreaming of it, because thats the best we could do. But now, it is not a time of dreaming, it is a time of acting! My intentions when i criticize a weakness, are not malefic, i intend on improving my aimed subject, because i believe that there is space for improvement!
I cannot let ppl to their misery, thats against my principles, i help where i can and try to offer this help/advice where it is needed the most.
When the situation is beyond help, hope is the only this we are left...
but this is not the case for Juve, at least not yet...
There are some specific weaknesses i see in Juve that i believe that they are holding us back.

It is my personal opinion, not an odd reason to bash the politics of our board.
I do believe that we can fix them and if we fix them, we will have better chances and we will become more competitive.
If i didnt believe that, then it would be pointless to ask it.
If we couldnt fix them with the available sources we had, then i wouldnt mind, i would just accept the situation as inevitable.
And then i would tolerate far from optimal solutions...
This board has followed a course of action, that IMO undermined our future for some specific reasons. I had some high hopes and expectations from them,
(The Agnelli's ought to respect Juve at her darkest moment of her history and use a small part of their fortune (200mil) to upkeep the salaries of our players and exceptional personnel,for just one season, until we would return in serie A (we could even loan some of them for one year, we had the option to keep the majority of them, they agreed)
they were never met, i accepted the situation and then hoped for a realistic compromise. (to keep a part of this money for our future acquisitions and then start adding just a couple of top class players per season, potential and youth should be preferred to exp+prestige. In 3 years time, with the added numbers of our remaining champions, we could become competitive and then start replacing them as they retire, keep adding 2 players per season, would have meant, a complete new competitive team after 5-6.
That was realistic, a similar plan was announced by them anyway and it could happen considering the amounts we have spend.)
Unfortunately, not even this happened... its ok...
Then i could only hope, that they wont waste our limited our resources and they wouldnt choose the worst possible realistic course of action, to players that would only give little to none momentary advantages and absolutely no long term advantages.
and they just did that...they FAILED miserable to upgrade this team in order to present a competitive group that would cooperate and then live past our remaining champions. I never asked for any titles of performances, i just wanted to see a solid plan materialized.
I just wanted to see a future beyond the legendary triade,
thats what saddens me the most, we dont make steps forwards to build that team.
I dont have any personal conflicts with Mr. Secco and Mr. Gigli.
But they have done the worst they could for my team, they betrayed my dreams, my expectations, but above all, they failed to deliver on their duties.
They even failed to deliver at simple things. They were far from optimal, but i could live with that, but i demand from them to be average at least, to use the resources they have wisely, if they cant make deals like Moggi, to acquire v.good players with peanuts, i at least expect from the players they overpay to satisfy our needs!! I expect them to have a solid plan, if not optimal and the ambition to follow it, if not the vision to create it. Is that too much to ask from them???
It shouldnt, we are stil JUVENTUS after all.
Maybe they were never mentioned to be a part of such a competitive team and its not their fault they cant cope. IMO, if they had some dignity, they should quit now, they served as quick fixes and they can be replaced by better men now.

Thats what i ve always thought of them and thats why i bash them,
not just for the shake of it, neither because i have anything personal against them. At every single season, i also start with some optimistic hopes for the best,
but i keep my expectations low. Those gents always manage to disappoint me.

I dont know when, if and under which context i said that Zalayeta is 10X better than Iaquinta. This can be happening, because i never really rated both of them.
So there cant be such a difference between them, because none f them is good enough in my books, to be 10X better than any similar player. Thats why i hate when ppl take things out of the context, my intentions could be sarcastic/ironic.
I could be referring to their form, value for money etc etc.
I do remember me saying that Iaquinta is an upgrade to Zalayeta, but he was not a priority. He is not the "champion" they labeled him to be, he doesnt have the potential to be a part of a future competitive Juve. We would rather invest the money we spend on him, in our defense, keep Zala and later upgrade on a top[ quality player!!
These have always been my true beliefs and stands, i still stand behind this view and i am proud of it!!!
The bulk of the arguments i ve used and the countless times i ve used them on different threads to explain my views on different ppl confirmed that!!
I still believe that it was the wrong move in the long run and we will confirm this year, when sell of Iaquinta. Thats exactly what i was talking about, acquiring Iaquinta then and selling him now is a side step, it was not a step forwards for the development of our team! Thats why i didnt want it happen. That was not a mistake, on the contrary, thats rather a confirmation of what i said. So try harder next time...

The choice seen retrospectively, shows so much of our boards vision and my opinion on the matter. I disagreed with their choice then, so that i wouldnt disagree with Amauri's acquisition this year, Cassano's acquisition next year and Treze replacement in the future If that acquisition wouldnt happen, i wouldnt oppose to Amauri's for ex
The reasoning behind my arguments where that deep, it can be best understood through the depths of time. Some ppl may use momentary results to make their point. But i was arguing the strategical importance of those choices though time.
Above all, i didnt want us to waste money on the some position we are well covered and keep ignoring the position we really hurt. I would accept any course of action that that, because i consider this, the least optimal choice.
If there is one least optimal choice in mind, that is!!
It is not my fault they chose to follow exactly the one i feared/hated the most.
If they were chosing to strengthen any other position with the bulk of our transfer budget and attention, i wouldnt complain, if they wouldnt repeat the same course of action, of spending there every single season, i wouldnt complain.
If they were selecting different players, even for the exact position they chose to upgrade, i wouldnt complain that much.
But this particular choice they made, is exactly what opposes to my views the most, for the particular reasons they pre-existed before their choice was made.
I hope this explains that i dont bash them for the sake of it...
As long as they repeat the same tactic, i will keep bashing them, because thats contrary to my beliefs and i see it as a threat to Juve's interests.
In the meantime, the effects of these choices hurt our team on some particularly fields, thats exactly what i didnt want to see happening, thats exactly what i wanted to prevent of happening, thats exactly what we could have prevent from happening if we didnt take that choice us, that condemned us in the first place.
As these effects are become more and more apparent, you expect me to admit that i made a mistake?

Just look at the "crimes" you made when defended this board and their course of action...

 

[JCK]

Based on the mistakes that you go on about all the time we should ahve witnessed a deterioration from last season but on the contrary it was an improvement, a huge on.

 

[Red]

I don't know if the improvement was huge, but there has certainly been an improvement.

 

[JCK]

I don't know if the improvement was huge, but there has certainly been an improvement.

Improving our position in the league (even though it has not been achieved yet) while playing in the CL and reaching the semi final of the Coppa with all the injuries is certainly remarkable.

 

[Red]

If you consider the injuries then the improvement has been significant.

I was just looking at the bare facts of how we did in the various competitions.

 

[Red]

Gigli: "Cassano è un buon giocatore, ma nessuno ha le caratteristiche per sostituire Nedved."


So Cassano would be in addition to a Nedved replacement if we were to sign him?

 

[Seven]

If we're buying that nessuno guy, yes.

 

[Red]

If we're buying that nessuno guy, yes.

Does it mean Cassano can't replace Nedved or that no-one has the characteristics to replace Nedved?

 

[Seven]

He said Cassano's good, but no one has the characteristics to replace Nedved. I assume it's just a compliment to Old Neddy.

 

[Bjerknes]

Better be. That little punk can't even be mentioned in the same breath as Pavel.

 

[Alen]

Gigli: "Cassano è un buon giocatore, ma nessuno ha le caratteristiche per sostituire Nedved."


So Cassano would be in addition to a Nedved replacement if we were to sign him?

No, he says that no-one has the characteristics to replace Nedved.


Edit: Fuck Seven.

 

[Cronios]

I am not debating an improvement on the performances, i never blamed our board for that.
But the improvement on the quality percentage of the players we were able to fit at a time was minimal.
The improvement of the base team, we were supposed to build for the future was almost limited. The players we added, canceled the effects of the players we already have and we didnt make an effort to improve our persistent problems in defense and wings.
We didnt make any step forward on building a competitive team IMO.
And as the time will go by, in a couple of seasons, you will understand what i mean, if you cant see it, not even now. This first examples are likely to be shown this year. When we will start selling the players we supposedly acquired to include in our future program (Iaquinta, Tiago, Almiron) The money and time we wasted on them, will be proved totally worthless, when we will be forced to invest even more to replace them in the future.
The forward particular, is double sin, because we sacrificed those resources which were needed elsewhere.
If our plans included Amauri and another top class expensive forward in the future (Like Cassano) why did we invest on Iaquinta in the first place??
He was never mentioned to become a starter. If he wasnt even mentioned as a sub to our future plan, then why sacrifice our needs in the midfield and funds to buy better and more reliable choices than Almiron, Tiago and Andrade???

Here is the question i ve risen when we bought them. Because, despite their form and momentary gains from their performances, their maximum potential indicated, that we will reach the day we will soon reach...

Then optimistic answer was that we bought them as starters for now and potential back up only, for the future potential Juve.
Then why did we set as the highest priority to further add more, current starters/future back ups, right in the next season??? (Sissoko, Amauri, Poulsen) What was their role then???
They failed as starters, they also failed as strategical assets/subs.
When is this mistake ever going to be recognized??

I ask again, what was the freakin plan, when we were investing the sum we could invest to buy a decent starter defender, on Iaquinta??
We already had two world class forwards! He couldnt be a starter anyway.
Since we were planning to buy two-three high calibre forwards and turn our current starters into subs,right in the next years, then what was Iaquinta's role in the long run???
Who is going to answer that??? Why did we sacrifice our needs in other places, both momentarily and in the long run?? For what??

The only benefit we gained from Iaquinta, is that he had a momentary better potential to become more useful/score more goals, than the Mutu and Zala we already have, instead of him...
That momentary advantage is in my opinion minimal.
Because he is not so much better than them and because his role was always mentioned to be reduced, due to the fact he was mentioned to be a sub.
So his maximum impact and marginal surplus of quality, comparing to them, would give minimum benefits to our goals anyway, as it did!!!
Setting this minimal advantage as a priority, instead of the many tactical and strategical benefits a real upgrade would give in a starter position, was a grave mistake in my books! And no one has still answered for that!
The other benefit we would have gained, of having a very competitive forward line fixed, for a few years, is about to be canceled when we will offload him.
This later benefit has been extensively been used and magnified, from our board's defenders in this forum. That was the last excuse that was able to stand against my question. This excuse was never enough to justify the mistakes on priorities and lack of vision, but many posters here were hiding behind and abused it.
When this excuse is going to be permanently removed and our persistent problems on the defense remain, i would like to see, what kind of excuse those posters will come up with...

Based on the mistakes that you go on about all the time we should ahve witnessed a deterioration from last season but on the contrary it was an improvement, a huge on.

To summarize, the acquisition of Amauri right in the next season of the acquisition of Iaquinta, wound undermine the benefits of the first one.
The acquisition of a new high profile forward, like Cassano, now, will minimize/completely cancel them.
Since this was not a priority in the first place and since, we gain no benefits in the long run, then why we wasted the limited resources we had on it??
Justify that!! And keep in mind that we made and keep making grave sacrifices, for this course of action...

 

[Seven]

No, he says that no-one has the characteristics to replace Nedved.


Edit: Fuck Seven.

Hey!

 

[- vOnAm -]

Improving our position in the league (even though it has not been achieved yet) while playing in the CL and reaching the semi final of the Coppa with all the injuries is certainly remarkable.

For fvck's sake, finally!!

 

[- vOnAm -]

To summarize, the acquisition of Amauri right in the next season of the acquisition of Iaquinta, wound undermine the benefits of the first one.
The acquisition of a new high profile forward, like Cassano, now, will minimize/completely cancel them.
Since this was not a priority in the first place and since, we gain no benefits in the long run, then why we wasted the limited resources we had on it??
Justify that!! And keep in mind that we made and keep making grave sacrifices, for this course of action...

Cronios, why do you go on and on calling the Amauri transfer a waste when he has been so pivitol! You say it cancels out Iaquinta's transfer but look at what has taken place man, So regardless of what you say, the board were ultimately correct. Regardless of whether it was luck or planned strategy, u can't bash them for actions that end up being right.

You make arguments that we haven't improved much but like jck said, we are doing much better than last year, considering the competitions we are in.

I don't mind Ranieri's reluctance to change formations too often or completely leave the 4-4-2
Because if we are "building" a team, we establish a system and find players to suit it. (at least that's one way of doing it)
Only occasionally changing formations to suit specific strategy.
My point is that we get more consistent results when we have a fixed formation. Everybody knows how to move and in which directions.

The compactness we have on the field shows this. U can see we often clearly lack quality but yet as a unit/team we are hard to defeat.

Ultimately, Gio is the victim. And thats y I think Ranieri didn't play him that often. But now, IMO, he has no other choice that to utilize him more and more.

 

[Alen]

To summarize, the acquisition of Amauri right in the next season of the acquisition of Iaquinta, wound undermine the benefits of the first one.
The acquisition of a new high profile forward, like Cassano, now, will minimize/completely cancel them.
Since this was not a priority in the first place and since, we gain no benefits in the long run, then why we wasted the limited resources we had on it??
Justify that!! And keep in mind that we made and keep making grave sacrifices, for this course of action...

I will justify that.

First of all, lets make it clear that Iaquinta is much much better player than Zalayeta. Zala was never anything more than an utility striker while Iaquinta was a world cup winner, who maybe isn't good enough to be a sure starter in the best teams, but is a striker that every top class team would like to have in the squad.

In the summer of 2007 we had Del Piero and Trezeguet. Zalayeta and Palladino weren't players you'd like to have as replacement if Del Piero or Trez are injured for longer period.
We simply had to have the third good striker in the team. We couldn't just take a risk and buy some youngster with potential, we couldn't just rely on Zala and Palladino, Bojinov didn't prove himself even in serie B and we didn't want to pay 8m to Fiorentina to keep him, and we certainly couldn't spend 20-30m for a top class attacker in 2007. We needed someone who was able to show up when needed. Someone who will do the job in this transition period of 2-3 years. Iaquinta was that guy and he proved himself as such. We didn't buy Iaquinta to be our leading striker in the future. We got him to be our quality on the bench who could temporarily successfully replace our quality on the pitch.

Summer of 2008
- We made it to CL (or we were close to making it because we were in the qualifiers). We knew that this year we won't have a week rest between the matches and we knew that this year we needed to improve our position in serie A also. We weren't playing only to secure CL qualification. We wanted to try and play for the scudetto this time and compete everywhere we play.
Having a 34 years old Del Piero, having a guy who gets a serious injury every second year and who is 31 and having Iaquinta may not be enough to achieve all this. We need more.
We finally have the money to get ourselves more quality in attack. Someone who can easily be a starter and score the needed goals.
Voila, we buy Amauri.
Amauri does great and Iaquinta keeps doing his job in the meantime. Whatever happened, we had top quality in attack no matter who plays there.

Summer of 2009
- Del Piero is close to 35, Trez spent most of the season injured (which wasn't a surprise).
If we buy Cassano we won't undermine the benefits of Amauri and Iaquinta (who btw did his job in the transition period and can now be sold), we will do it because there are huge chances that our main two strikers won't be able to win us trophies anymore.

----------

You know my stance in Cassano's case. I also don't think we should make him our main purchase if we keep the 4-4-2. But in your post you made it sound that by buying Cassano (and previously Amauri) the board is admiting the mistakes done in the summer of 2007 and 2008 when they bought Iaquinta (Amauri). I'm telling you that you are wrong.

 

[C4ISR]

Gigli said there will be no major departures, putting my theory that a Trez sale would fund Cassano to rest. I still think Cassano is NOT the Nedved replacement, and I'm curious how were going to afford him.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Now we question Amauri and Iaquinta, pure madness.