the new,improved,updated and completely irrelevant 2009-Cassano to Juve thread (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bozi
- Start date
I actually liked that variant Alen for a few reasons:
-We will create more spectacle and attract more fans, which is our announced number one priority(that exceed titles/successes/competitiveness), in order to create more income for Fiat...erm our capital...
-Since we ll have to buy Cassano, one way or another, i would like to see the maximum number of our most valuable players fielded regularly, in order to capitalize from our investments as much as we can and mask our weaknesses elsewhere.
-I miss possession football, with short passes, tactics, dribbling and everything that made me a Juve fan in the first place.
-Most of the least competitive serie A teams, are unable to attack and they prefer to sit back their wall of bulldogs. This formation would expose them and probably force the entire Italian league to change reasoning. Otherwise, the catenaccio will just bend us in the end...
-This type of football will give us more chances to cup type of competitions,
we dont have realistic chances to take the championship from Mourinho, but we can win the cup and advance further to the European cup (CL) where such football is encouraged.
-Our defensive effectiveness with Molinaro, Legro and Grygera as starters is... miserable. Not even Capello's bulletproof Zebina,Thuram,Canna, Zambro with the support of Emerson+Vieira couldnt guarantee results, with the sit back tight and hope that the goal will come, tactics both him and the coward CR apply.
Since we cant defend effectively, we can only hope that we can attack effectively!
Trying to defend with a hollow defense is pointless. It has been repeatedly proved this season. When we decided to sit back and defend the lead.
I would like to see us making a decisive turn to one direction.
Juventus has been proving for decades that a solid squad should be build on a solid defense. If our board wants to change this mentality and follow the Real Madrid/Barcelona path, i expect to act accordingly to the principles of this path.
I just dont want to see half measures, sidesteps and indecisiveness...
-That would make some sense, that would prove that we actually had some kind of plan and showed some vision, or at least adapted to the situation...
BUT, CR wont like it. He is too scared to field such a formation, which more that 2 players cant defend. He is afraid that this team might win some and lose some.
And he cant stand the fact that he might lose some. He prefers to win some and draw some more. Ppl labeled him a loser and to prove them wrong, he must prove that his teams dont lose easily. He is not a winner, but he is trying hard not be a loser... He has to live with this illusion, thats what it keeps driving him at this age...
We can only hope that injuries, suspensions and a momentary crisis
will force his hand to give it a try
and then the results will make him change his mind.
Just like it happened with the doom of 2 DMs at lost costs...
-We will create more spectacle and attract more fans, which is our announced number one priority(that exceed titles/successes/competitiveness), in order to create more income for Fiat...erm our capital...
-Since we ll have to buy Cassano, one way or another, i would like to see the maximum number of our most valuable players fielded regularly, in order to capitalize from our investments as much as we can and mask our weaknesses elsewhere.
-I miss possession football, with short passes, tactics, dribbling and everything that made me a Juve fan in the first place.
-Most of the least competitive serie A teams, are unable to attack and they prefer to sit back their wall of bulldogs. This formation would expose them and probably force the entire Italian league to change reasoning. Otherwise, the catenaccio will just bend us in the end...
-This type of football will give us more chances to cup type of competitions,
we dont have realistic chances to take the championship from Mourinho, but we can win the cup and advance further to the European cup (CL) where such football is encouraged.
-Our defensive effectiveness with Molinaro, Legro and Grygera as starters is... miserable. Not even Capello's bulletproof Zebina,Thuram,Canna, Zambro with the support of Emerson+Vieira couldnt guarantee results, with the sit back tight and hope that the goal will come, tactics both him and the coward CR apply.
Since we cant defend effectively, we can only hope that we can attack effectively!
Trying to defend with a hollow defense is pointless. It has been repeatedly proved this season. When we decided to sit back and defend the lead.
I would like to see us making a decisive turn to one direction.
Juventus has been proving for decades that a solid squad should be build on a solid defense. If our board wants to change this mentality and follow the Real Madrid/Barcelona path, i expect to act accordingly to the principles of this path.
I just dont want to see half measures, sidesteps and indecisiveness...
-That would make some sense, that would prove that we actually had some kind of plan and showed some vision, or at least adapted to the situation...
BUT, CR wont like it. He is too scared to field such a formation, which more that 2 players cant defend. He is afraid that this team might win some and lose some.
And he cant stand the fact that he might lose some. He prefers to win some and draw some more. Ppl labeled him a loser and to prove them wrong, he must prove that his teams dont lose easily. He is not a winner, but he is trying hard not be a loser... He has to live with this illusion, thats what it keeps driving him at this age...
We can only hope that injuries, suspensions and a momentary crisis
will force his hand to give it a try
and then the results will make him change his mind.
Just like it happened with the doom of 2 DMs at lost costs...
Here's another beauty of that formation.
Playing 4-3-2-1 means that you have 3 midfielders in the starting XI and if Ranieri wants 2 players on every position, it means that we will need 6 midfielders.
Right now we have Sissoko, Poulsen, Marchisio, Tiago, Zanetti, Camoranesi, Marchionni, Salihamidzic, Ekdal. That's 9 midfielders. 3 more than needed.
Ekdal isn't good enough to be part of these 6 players so we either loan him or play him with the primavera.
Now we have 8 players in midfield.
4-3-2-1 isn't written in stone. Sometimes it could change again to 4-4-2. We have Camo for MR but in case he's injured we'll need one of Marchionni and Salihamidzic in case we want to play 4-4-2 on some particular match.
So, we keep 2 of Camo-Marco-Brazzo and we get rid of one of them (one of Brazzo-Marco).
Now all we need to do is to get rid of one of the CM's. It's either Tiago or Zanetti but my choice would be Tiago.
In attack we won't need Iaquinta anymore (unfortunately). One of Grygera/Zebina also won't be needed.
Now, our directors say that they already have 20m eur for the big signing. Lets say we use these 20m (+some players like Almiron and few more) to buy Cassano and a RB.
Selling Iaquinta, Tiago, Zebina and one of of Marchionni/Brazzo will bring us lots of money that we can use for one more player of high quality. Even wage wise we will do good because we'll be getting rid of 4 high paid players who will be replaced by 2 high earners+ Zuniga.
This will never happen, but it sounds so nice
Playing 4-3-2-1 means that you have 3 midfielders in the starting XI and if Ranieri wants 2 players on every position, it means that we will need 6 midfielders.
Right now we have Sissoko, Poulsen, Marchisio, Tiago, Zanetti, Camoranesi, Marchionni, Salihamidzic, Ekdal. That's 9 midfielders. 3 more than needed.
Ekdal isn't good enough to be part of these 6 players so we either loan him or play him with the primavera.
Now we have 8 players in midfield.
4-3-2-1 isn't written in stone. Sometimes it could change again to 4-4-2. We have Camo for MR but in case he's injured we'll need one of Marchionni and Salihamidzic in case we want to play 4-4-2 on some particular match.
So, we keep 2 of Camo-Marco-Brazzo and we get rid of one of them (one of Brazzo-Marco).
Now all we need to do is to get rid of one of the CM's. It's either Tiago or Zanetti but my choice would be Tiago.
In attack we won't need Iaquinta anymore (unfortunately). One of Grygera/Zebina also won't be needed.
Now, our directors say that they already have 20m eur for the big signing. Lets say we use these 20m (+some players like Almiron and few more) to buy Cassano and a RB.
Selling Iaquinta, Tiago, Zebina and one of of Marchionni/Brazzo will bring us lots of money that we can use for one more player of high quality. Even wage wise we will do good because we'll be getting rid of 4 high paid players who will be replaced by 2 high earners+ Zuniga.
This will never happen, but it sounds so nice
Selling Iaquinta, Tiago, Zebina and one of of Marchionni/Brazzo will bring us lots of money that we can use for one more player of high quality. Even wage wise we will do good because we'll be getting rid of 4 high paid players who will be replaced by 2 high earners+ Zuniga.
This will never happen, but it sounds so nice
This will never happen, but it sounds so nice
Maybe, but how many quality, and yet not needed, players did we have for selling in the last 2 summers?
In 2007 we just came back from B, we had a very thin squad and we had to buy, we didn't have much to sell (we sold only Miccoli from the bigger names in the team and then we sold Boumsong in the winter).
Last summer again we didn't have many players to sell. The goal was to have 2 players for every position and we bought/called back from loan 8 new players (not counting Chimenti and Ekdal) in order to have the needed depth. Only 4 of our players weren't needed. Nocerino, Palladino, Almiron and Tiago. We did sell Nocerino and half of Palladino for 12m eur while Tiago didn't want to leave even though we found a buyer and the problem with Almiron was that he didn't fail only in Juve, but he failed also in Monaco and no-one wanted to buy him. After his last episode with Fiorentina, we'll be happy to get rid of him in some player exchange deal.
It's way too easy to say that Secco doesn't know how to sell the players or doesn't want to sell players. There were many reasons why we didn't sell much during the last 2 years.
In 2007 we just came back from B, we had a very thin squad and we had to buy, we didn't have much to sell (we sold only Miccoli from the bigger names in the team and then we sold Boumsong in the winter).
Last summer again we didn't have many players to sell. The goal was to have 2 players for every position and we bought/called back from loan 8 new players (not counting Chimenti and Ekdal) in order to have the needed depth. Only 4 of our players weren't needed. Nocerino, Palladino, Almiron and Tiago. We did sell Nocerino and half of Palladino for 12m eur while Tiago didn't want to leave even though we found a buyer and the problem with Almiron was that he didn't fail only in Juve, but he failed also in Monaco and no-one wanted to buy him. After his last episode with Fiorentina, we'll be happy to get rid of him in some player exchange deal.
It's way too easy to say that Secco doesn't know how to sell the players or doesn't want to sell players. There were many reasons why we didn't sell much during the last 2 years.
Having Cassano, Giovinco, Del Piero and Amauri is the less attractive version (name-wise) of last season's Barcelona when they had Ronaldinho, Henry, Messi and Eto'o.
Of course, Barcelona couldn't use all of them in the same line-up and neither could we.
But who says that we must use all of them in the same line-up? If the coach is willing and intelligent enough to rotate the attackers smartly, then we might find ourselves with a killer attack on every single match.
Using 4-3-2-1 we can have all these combinations:
1. Cassano-Del Piero-Amauri
2. Cassano-Giovinco- Amauri
3. Del Piero-Giovinco-Amauri
4. Cassano-Del Piero-Trezeguet
5. Cassano-Giovinco-Trezeguet
6. Del Piero-Giovinco-Trezeguet
With this we solve the problem with our wingers. Considering Camo's injuries, we don't have to think about new MR and we don't have to think about a direct Neddy replacement.
Of course, a 4-3-2-1 requires more attacking full backs. But one good and attacking full back might be enough. For example, Barcelona don't have two attacking full backs. Buying Zuniga for the RB position might solve this little problem.
To make myself more clear, a change to 4-3-2-1 means that Cassano and Zuniga are enough. Considering how both of them play in Italy and we can involve some of the unneeded players we have, we might have a lot of money left to improve even the central defense.
Buying only a direct replacement for Nedved (lets say Silva) and keeping the 4-4-2, means that we will spend just as much money as in my suggestion above, it leaves us with Giovinco certainly sitting on the bench and it leaves us with the MR problem.
Come on Cronios, i know you don't like my suggestion. Lets hear why.
Of course, Barcelona couldn't use all of them in the same line-up and neither could we.
But who says that we must use all of them in the same line-up? If the coach is willing and intelligent enough to rotate the attackers smartly, then we might find ourselves with a killer attack on every single match.
Using 4-3-2-1 we can have all these combinations:
1. Cassano-Del Piero-Amauri
2. Cassano-Giovinco- Amauri
3. Del Piero-Giovinco-Amauri
4. Cassano-Del Piero-Trezeguet
5. Cassano-Giovinco-Trezeguet
6. Del Piero-Giovinco-Trezeguet
With this we solve the problem with our wingers. Considering Camo's injuries, we don't have to think about new MR and we don't have to think about a direct Neddy replacement.
Of course, a 4-3-2-1 requires more attacking full backs. But one good and attacking full back might be enough. For example, Barcelona don't have two attacking full backs. Buying Zuniga for the RB position might solve this little problem.
To make myself more clear, a change to 4-3-2-1 means that Cassano and Zuniga are enough. Considering how both of them play in Italy and we can involve some of the unneeded players we have, we might have a lot of money left to improve even the central defense.
Buying only a direct replacement for Nedved (lets say Silva) and keeping the 4-4-2, means that we will spend just as much money as in my suggestion above, it leaves us with Giovinco certainly sitting on the bench and it leaves us with the MR problem.
Come on Cronios, i know you don't like my suggestion. Lets hear why.
But then.. We could play something like your formation already, but we don't. Which I find quite telling.
Maybe the problem is Nedved and Ranieri's wish to take things slowly with Giovinco. And perhaps it's also because it's not easy to change a the formation during the season. We started with the well known to our team 4-4-2 with Camo and Nedved on the sides, we won most of our matches until Christmas with Marchionni instead of Camo and Ranieri didn't want to change anything. Then it was too late to start experimenting with the system.
If Nedved retires and if our big name signing is Cassano then i really don't see how can we continue with 4-4-2 as our main formation, especially after seeing that Camoranesi might easily never be the same Camo again.
If Nedved retires and if our big name signing is Cassano then i really don't see how can we continue with 4-4-2 as our main formation, especially after seeing that Camoranesi might easily never be the same Camo again.
We have often done well playing the 4-3-3 and as I have mentioned earlier, Ranieri has played a similar system for Parma recently with great results.
I reckon that there are two reasons for his stubbornness with the 4-4-2. The protection of Giovinco not one of them;
1. Nedved, like Alen said above. We all know how he is on the pitch, but that Ekdal interview really portrayed what a character he is off the pitch as well. He's a winner and a leader, and even when he is not playing well his mere presence is of psychological value.
Considering Nedved is likely to retire this summer, Ranieri could also be playing him out of sympathy. Not impossible considering Claudio's personality.
2. Knowing our fullbacks are weak, he saw it necessary to play with four midfielders for both attacking and defensive support. Even when you play Giovinco on the right instead of Marchionni, something I and many others wanted, he will only be useful if you give him some freedom. Ranieri considers the two wide players on each side as a pairing (rather than relying on their individual skills) allowing us to get away with using inferior players there.
This would at least mean that he recognises the problem. We will only know how he thinks after the summer mercato, judging by the players acquired.
I reckon that there are two reasons for his stubbornness with the 4-4-2. The protection of Giovinco not one of them;
1. Nedved, like Alen said above. We all know how he is on the pitch, but that Ekdal interview really portrayed what a character he is off the pitch as well. He's a winner and a leader, and even when he is not playing well his mere presence is of psychological value.
Considering Nedved is likely to retire this summer, Ranieri could also be playing him out of sympathy. Not impossible considering Claudio's personality.
2. Knowing our fullbacks are weak, he saw it necessary to play with four midfielders for both attacking and defensive support. Even when you play Giovinco on the right instead of Marchionni, something I and many others wanted, he will only be useful if you give him some freedom. Ranieri considers the two wide players on each side as a pairing (rather than relying on their individual skills) allowing us to get away with using inferior players there.
This would at least mean that he recognises the problem. We will only know how he thinks after the summer mercato, judging by the players acquired.
We have often done well playing the 4-3-3 and as I have mentioned earlier, Ranieri has played a similar system for Parma recently with great results.
I reckon that there are two reasons for his stubbornness with the 4-4-2. The protection of Giovinco not one of them;
1. Nedved, like Alen said above. We all know how he is on the pitch, but that Ekdal interview really portrayed what a character he is off the pitch as well. He's a winner and a leader, and even when he is not playing well his mere presence is of psychological value.
Considering Nedved is likely to retire this summer, Ranieri could also be playing him out of sympathy. Not impossible considering Claudio's personality.
2. Knowing our fullbacks are weak, he saw it necessary to play with four midfielders for both attacking and defensive support. Even when you play Giovinco on the right instead of Marchionni, something I and many others wanted, he will only be useful if you give him some freedom. And that would counteract the whole idea.
Ranieri considers the two wide players on each side as a pairing (rather than relying on their individual skills) allowing us to get away with using inferior players there.
This would mean that he recognises the problem. We will only know how he thinks after the summer mercato, judging by the players acquired.
I reckon that there are two reasons for his stubbornness with the 4-4-2. The protection of Giovinco not one of them;
1. Nedved, like Alen said above. We all know how he is on the pitch, but that Ekdal interview really portrayed what a character he is off the pitch as well. He's a winner and a leader, and even when he is not playing well his mere presence is of psychological value.
Considering Nedved is likely to retire this summer, Ranieri could also be playing him out of sympathy. Not impossible considering Claudio's personality.
2. Knowing our fullbacks are weak, he saw it necessary to play with four midfielders for both attacking and defensive support. Even when you play Giovinco on the right instead of Marchionni, something I and many others wanted, he will only be useful if you give him some freedom. And that would counteract the whole idea.
Ranieri considers the two wide players on each side as a pairing (rather than relying on their individual skills) allowing us to get away with using inferior players there.
This would mean that he recognises the problem. We will only know how he thinks after the summer mercato, judging by the players acquired.
If you always predict that things will go wrong, you are bound to be right occasionally.
I see what you are implying here and it is just...sad...
Esp at this certain moment, it very well known that i was always opposed to add more forwards instead of fixing our defensive issues first.
I wasnt complaining just for the shake of it... i was opposed to that choice from before it was confirmed and i wouldnt if they were rather choose to invest on the places we are suffering instead...
I never did that and it is unfair to be accused of it...
Indeed, but if you predict that things will go wrong on certain times, extensively explaining how, when and right, even before the choice is made, the same cannot be said....
I'd reckon he simply doesn't know what he's doing more than anything else. Yeah, he apparently knows our fullbacks aren't that good yet he continues to use the same fullbacks match in, match out. I simply don't buy the argument that we need the straight 4-4-2 just because Molinaro and Grygera aren't the best of players. Even without a DM against Chelsea we still did well with the 4-3-3. I know it's only one data point, but it was the toughest match we had so it has a lot of bearing.