The Lebanese political crisis!!! (8 Viewers)

[Igal]

i ment that wikipedia isnt the most trustful source out there.

So far it was very trustworthy about everything I've checked... But OK, let's try Britannica:

Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews

Britannica calls it Palestine, but refers to it as ancient homeland of the Jews.

 

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[Rami]

Sorry, didn't get the insinuation...




What land exactly are you referring to? If you're talking about the land that nowadays called the Gaza strip - yes, that's the land that was called Palestine. If you're talking about the land that nowadays called Israel - sorry to disappoint you, but even b4 there was a land called Palestine, this land was called the Kingdom of Israel. And if you want to go even further in history - it was called also Canaan (a Hebrew word).
And here's the most interesting part: in Quran there're several times when the term Al-Ard Al-Muqaddasah (the Holy Land) is mentioned. One of them is when Moses proclaims to the Children of Israel and I quote: "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin." (Surah 5:21)

Wow thats some serious twisting facts and pulling verses out of context....Let me continue the verses for you my friend:

22. They said: "O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter."

23. (But) among (their) Allah.fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: They said: "Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith."

24. They said: "O Moses! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch)."

25. He said: "O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!"

26. Allah said: "Therefore will the land be out of their reach for forty years: In distraction will they wander through the land: But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.

So they didn't want to go in back then, and talked to their prophet (Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two") in a disrespectful manner..fast forward 3000 years suddenly its promised land

 

[Slagathor]

Holy Books, pah. Now there's a good bunch of true Weapons of Mass Destruction.

 

[Rami]

Holy Books, pah. Now there's a good bunch of true Weapons of Mass Destruction.

I usually don't use Holy books in such debates, but Iqal brought it up, and did a lousy job might I add...So I had to step up

 

[Slagathor]

I usually don't use Holy books in such debates, but Iqal brought it up, and did a lousy job might I add...So I had to step up

Yeah well for the same money, Allah himself might be cursing the way you interpret his word, who's to say.

That's assuming he exists.

Regardless of written words, I'd be interested to hear what you suggest the international community should do in Palestine/Israel?

 

[Rami]

Yeah well for the same money, Allah himself might be cursing the way you interpret his word, who's to say.

That's assuming he exists.

Regardless of written words, I'd be interested to hear what you suggest the international community should do in Palestine/Israel?

I didn't really interpret anything...I just completed the verses he "conveniently" left out....

As for the latter part of your post. I really have a pessimistic view of the whole situation...I don't really believe both of them could live peacefully together...well at least for this generation and perhaps a couple more generations down the line...The two nations will keep fighting until one annihilates the other....

 

[Slagathor]

I didn't really interpret anything...I just completed the verses he "conveniently" left out....

As for the latter part of your post. I really have a pessimistic view of the whole situation...I don't really believe both of them could live peacefully together...well at least for this generation and perhaps a couple more generations down the line...The two nations will keep fighting until one annihilates the other....

What about peacefully separated? Build a wall (over the actual proper border), turn Jerusalem into a free state and move the capital cities to Tel Aviv and Ramallah respectively. Anything along those lines you could agree with?

 

[Igal]

No, I don't think I did a lousy job. And I didn't exactly start it - the palestinians claim that this is their land by Quran. I just brought it up here. Now, what Rami quoted doesn't contradict what I quoted - perhaps according to Quran the Jews didn't want to enter the land, BUT it doesn't mean that the land isn't Jewish. That was the point of the verse I quoted. So now it means that Quran says that the Jews didn't want to enter THEIR OWN LAND, 'cause there were other people sitting on JEWISH land.
Anyway, I'm not the expert on holy books, but the Torah and the Bible say that the Jews did enter that land. Only Moses himself didn't get to enter that land.

Anyway, being a secular man I have to say that I believe that any can interpret those books in the manner that will be suitable to his needs.
Also, these books were written by men and not sent us by e-mail from above. Just a point to think about...

 

[Rami]

What about peacefully separated? Build a wall (over the actual proper border), turn Jerusalem into a free state and move the capital cities to Tel Aviv and Ramallah respectively. Anything along those lines you could agree with?

Its not up to me to agree or not! If that happens then great. But agreeing or not is up to Palestinians and Israelis. I don't know about the Israelis, but most Palestinians consider the whole land theirs, and will not forgo it. Thats why I said perhaps after a couple of generations down the line. But this generation isn't willing to give up one feet of the land....

Another issue IF your proposal happens, will Israel actually respect the in independency of the Palestinians? History tells us that Israel didn't respect it, in addition to the sovereignty of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. What makes you think that they will in the future?

 

[Rami]

No, I don't think I did a lousy job. And I didn't exactly start it - the palestinians claim that this is their land by Quran. I just brought it up here. Now, what Rami quoted doesn't contradict what I quoted - perhaps according to Quran the Jews didn't want to enter the land, BUT it doesn't mean that the land isn't Jewish. That was the point of the verse I quoted. So now it means that Quran says that the Jews didn't want to enter THEIR OWN LAND, 'cause there were other people sitting on JEWISH land.
Anyway, I'm not the expert on holy books, but the Torah and the Bible say that the Jews did enter that land. Only Moses himself didn't get to enter that land.

Anyway, being a secular man I have to say that I believe that any can interpret those books in the manner that will be suitable to his needs.
Also, these books were written by men and not sent us by e-mail from above. Just a point to think about...

No it doesn't contradict, but you should say the whole story, and not take verses that are convenient for you.

So you are saying that Jews didn't want to enter cause there other people sitting on "JEWISH" land....How is that different from the modern history situation??

So Holy Books aren't really a good argument tools? Then don't use them...

 

[Slagathor]

Its not up to me to agree or not!

Wrong choice of words then. I was merely interested how you, as a Muslim, would feel about the continuing existence of a Jewish state.

If that happens then great. But agreeing or not is up to Palestinians and Israelis. I don't know about the Israelis, but most Palestinians consider the whole land theirs, and will not forgo it. Thats why I said perhaps after a couple of generations down the line. But this generation isn't willing to give up one feet of the land....

Good point.

Another issue IF your proposal happens, will Israel actually respect the in independency of the Palestinians? History tells us that Israel didn't respect it, in addition to the sovereignty of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. What makes you think that they will in the future?

Well that works both ways. As I recall, it was Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq who invaded Israel shortly after it was established in 1948. Neither Israelis nor Arabs have shown a great deal of respect towards each other in terms of sovereignty or even blunt recognition of existence.

 

[Igal]

Its not up to me to agree or not! If that happens then great. But agreeing or not is up to Palestinians and Israelis. I don't know about the Israelis, but most Palestinians consider the whole land theirs, and will not forgo it. Thats why I said perhaps after a couple of generations down the line. But this generation isn't willing to give up one feet of the land....

Another issue IF your proposal happens, will Israel actually respect the in independency of the Palestinians? History tells us that Israel didn't respect it, in addition to the sovereignty of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. What makes you think that they will in the future?

About the land - just as I wrote b4, the Gaza strip is Palestine. All the rest - Israel. I'm not sure about Judea and Samaria, don't know all the facts, but the name Judea sounds to me like a Jewish name...

About the Palestinian independency: Palestine isn't yet independent, I wish it was, but it's not, it depends much on Israel as well (mostly in infrastructure, labor). So what exactly do you mean by saying "Israel didn't respect it"? And what do you mean by "in addition to the sovereignty of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq"??? Please, explain.

 

[Rami]

About the land - just as I wrote b4, the Gaza strip is Palestine. All the rest - Israel. I'm not sure about Judea and Samaria, don't know all the facts, but the name Judea sounds to me like a Jewish name...

About the Palestinian independency: Palestine isn't yet independent, I wish it was, but it's not, it depends much on Israel as well (mostly in infrastructure, labor). So what exactly do you mean by saying "Israel didn't respect it"? And what do you mean by "in addition to the sovereignty of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq"??? Please, explain.

It's not independent because Israel is not letting it be independent! What does labor and infrastructure have to do with it...there are 10's of countries around the world who as poor as Palestinians or even poorer...Did you see South Africa invading Zimbabwe, and then go "it's ok we are here because you are poor and need us" ??

As for the second part: Sinai, Sheba, Goulan, and Iraq bombing in the 80's.

 

[Igal]

No it doesn't contradict, but you should say the whole story, and not take verses that are convenient for you.

So you are saying that Jews didn't want to enter cause there other people sitting on "JEWISH" land....How is that different from the modern history situation??

So Holy Books aren't really a good argument tools? Then don't use them...

Again, you're missing the point: I'm not talking about the whole story, the whole story doesn't matter here. I'm talking about this specific verse, which refers to this land as the Promised Land, promised to Jews.

And it wasn't me who said that the jews don't want to enter the land 'cause of other people, that's what I understood from your Quran quote. Being a Jew I'll have to refer to Torah b4 I refer to Quran. And Torah says that the Jews did enter the land. So how's that different from the modern history situation? According to Torah - it's not: jews are sitting on their land. According to Quran - Jews did enter eventually to their land.

Again, I'm not an expert in Holy Books. I just referred to them 'cause palestinians refered to them by claiming this is their land. Thus I see no reason why I shouldn't have referred to these books. Do I believe in everything they say? Just as I said - I'm a secular man. But it doesn't mean that I can't refer to the same tools used by the Palestinians.

 

[Rami]

Wrong choice of words then. I was merely interested how you, as a Muslim, would feel about the continuing existence of a Jewish state.

Ok, me as a Muslim wouldn't appreciate having a Jewish state in the region obviously. But for the time being I wouldn't mind some kind of agreement or settlement that would end the cycle of violence.

Well that works both ways. As I recall, it was Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Iraq who invaded Israel shortly after it was established in 1948. Neither Israelis nor Arabs have shown a great deal of respect towards each other in terms of sovereignty or even blunt recognition of existence.

Put yourself in the shoes of the Arab nations back then. Most of them were just liberated from the British and French, and then suddenly a new invasion of a Holy land to them.

Imagine tomorrow the Japanese declare that Liechtenstein is a Japanese country. Would the EU stand still? I believe that they will try diplomatic routes, but if it fails force would be used....

Anyways, what about Sinai, Sheba, and Goulan???

And what about the bombing of Iraq?

And what about the Israeli settlements in Palestinian land, and the bulldozers, and tanks...yada yada yada

is that all a result of that 7 army war?

 

[Slagathor]

Ok, me as a Muslim wouldn't appreciate having a Jewish state in the region obviously. But for the time being I wouldn't mind some kind of agreement or settlement that would end the cycle of violence.

See that puzzles me. I understand the lands in question are holy for Muslims, but the same goes for Christians and Jews.
Traditionally, the Jewish faith has its homebase in and around the region of Jerusalem, it seems fair they should have something of a state.

Put yourself in the shoes of the Arab nations back then. Most of them were just liberated from the British and French, and then suddenly a new invasion of a Holy land to them.

Oh I would never argue the way Israel was founded was even remotely honest, because I don't think it is.

Imagine tomorrow the Japanese declare that Liechtenstein is a Japanese country. Would the EU stand still? I believe that they will try diplomatic routes, but if it fails force would be used....

See, but to me that's comparing apples with pears. Japan has no historical ties in Liechtenstein (which I doubt the EU would militarily defend at all but that's besides the point) but it cannot be denied Jews, as a group or a people, have historic ties with what is currently Israel.
The Bible, the Quran, and many more books are filled with stories that testify of such. A Kingdom of Israel existed in the region many centuries ago. It's not randomly invented by several world leaders, it's a historic fact that Jews have a home in Israel.

Anyways, what about Sinai, Sheba, and Goulan???

And what about the bombing of Iraq?

And what about the Israeli settlements in Palestinian land, and the bulldozers, and tanks...yada yada yada

is that all a result of that 7 army war?

I would certainly argue there's a strong connection, yes. Do I support Israel in any of it? Hell no.

On a different note: I have heard Muslims argue things along the lines of "I'm all for Jews having their own state, so long as it's somewhere in Europe" which to me is a ridiculous claim. How do you see it?

 

[Azzurri7]

Right after Senioura requested that Hezballah to disarm DURING the onslaught, Hezballah simply said no for the OBVIOUS reason that the country is being attacked. Logically you must defend yourself. Plus this is the SAME government that gave Hezballah the support to be the legitimise them as the country's freedom fighters. i.e. a green light to use their arms in case of an attack against Lebanon.

Thank you, you explained It all. Sanyoura the one you people call him "American pro" went to the white house, I don't know If you've watched that or recall it, he stated in the white house that Hezbolla's weapons SHOULD be solved between the Lebanese leaders. But hey, Sanyoura met with Condoliza, so he's pro bush.

However, my point is after-all these leaders from Sanyoura to Hariri kept traveling the world asking France, States, Germany and etc not to interfere when It comes to Hezbolla weapons, yet Hezbolla make war whenever they feel like without taking ANY permission from their people nor their gov. Is that the way you pay back people defending your weapons???

After the meeting Senioura was left helpless, and simply didn't give a sh*t when Condy said she'd give Israel MORE TIME to bomb (approx. 16 days)

What do you mean he didn't give a sh*t??? You expect him to rape Condy and make her by force oblige Israel to stop the war? You think Sanyoura can force world's strongest country to put pressure on Israel? Lets talk some logic please....

I really find It silly accusing sanyoura with these silly accusations....Just because he tried by meeting Condy to find a solution for this war to end up.

....and just to remind you my friend, Nabih Berre and Mohamad Fneish stated when this war finished that It's the best gov and they were patriotic during the war. Right before the "International Trial" they turn them into pro Israelians and Americans??? How sweet eh?

And just two hours before the cease-fire, over 100 shells were launched all over Lebanon. Just random targets mosty in Shi'a-populated areas.

What Sanyoura has to do with this?

The people sitting in downtown Beirut opposing the government are fed up. Their expectations are not Iran, Syria and whatever else conspiracies you have in mind. And Nasrallah is even saying he is willing to cooperate with pro gov't officials in order to have a balanced leadership.

Fed up??? I doubt It.

The people in downtown Beirut are there because Nasrallah asked them to be there. Thats the diff. If Nasrallah was going to praise the gov, you'd have seen everyone praising them.

Perhaps not all of them are willing to join the Iran-Syria plan, but surely their leaders are, and by just refusing the "International Trial" shows how much they're LEBANESE.

You say Nasrallah is willing to cooperate with the gov ehh? How can he call them "Olmerts gov and Jeffrey Filtman's gov" and then ask to cooperate with them?? hehe, seriously I'm failing to find the connection.

So you work with people working for Olmert's gov and Jeffrey Filtmans??? Hassan Nasrallah should really make up his mind.

 

[Igal]

It's not independent because Israel is not letting it be independent! What does labor and infrastructure have to do with it...there are 10's of countries around the world who as poor as Palestinians or even poorer...Did you see South Africa invading Zimbabwe, and then go "it's ok we are here because you are poor and need us" ??

As for the second part: Sinai, Sheba, Goulan, and Iraq bombing in the 80's.

Israel is not letting it be independent??? Is Israel the only thing that stopping Palestinians to have their own state? Take it to the UN - that's where they voted for Israel to have their own state!
Infrastructure? Well, Israel is obligated to supply water and electricity to the territories. Labor... do I have to explain it?

Sinai - was conquered from the Egyptians during the Six-Day War in 1967, which they, the Egyptians, initiated along with Syria, Jordan and Iraq against Israel. Later was returned to Egypt as part of the Peace Agreement between the two states.

Sheba - I'm not familiar with the history of this dispute, thus can't comment on it.

Golan Heights - were conquered from Syria during the same war and annexed to Israel. Just as Russia, for example, annexed Königsberg from Germany after the WWII.

Iraq - Israel bombarded the nuclear reactor in Iraq, as it was a threat to the existance of the State of Israel.

 

[Azzurri7]

Can we end the Israel-Palestine thing?? Please?

 

[JCK]