The Lebanese political crisis!!! (31 Viewers)

[Ahmedios]

Contrary to what people might practice in their primitive ways: women are not considered properties. In fact Islam brought rights for women. Though their current position in most "Muslim" countries is pretty bad. Turkey and Pakistan give their women the most rights as far as I know.

I agree except for the highlighted part. How could you know that women are badly treated nowadays in the Islamic countries? You are talking about more than 20 Islamic countries in the Middle East. Certainly, lots of things differ from one country to another, therefore, take this into your consideration, please.

 

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[Zé Tahir]

Well, as far as I know, in some of those countries women don't have the right to vote. They don't have the right to chose to wear the hijab; in Saudi women aren't allowed to drive! Women are not to go to beaches, etc. etc.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Tahir,

Who said that women are treated like properties??

Where did I say that?

 

[ReBeL]

Well, as far as I know, in some of those countries women don't have the right to vote. They don't have the right to chose to wear the hijab; in Saudi women aren't allowed to drive! Women are not to go to beaches, etc. etc.

Ok, you mean the gulf countries...

But they are only 7 countries, and you said "Most" Muslim countries....

Islamic countries are more than 50, man...

 

[ReBeL]

Where did I say that?

My bad...

 

[Ahmedios]

Well, as far as I know, in some of those countries women don't have the right to vote. They don't have the right to chose to wear the hijab; in Saudi women aren't allowed to drive! Women are not to go to beaches, etc. etc.

The Gulf countries were the same nearly two decades ago, but now they are like the Arabic countries of north Africa (Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco). Saudi is an exception due to the presence of the holy Islamic places.

Certainly, women have the right to do whatever she wants, but at the same time, she respects the customs and traditions of the place, she is totally convinced moreover.

I think you'll never be convinced except when you see that by your naked eyes. Hope you'll visit the Arab world soon.

 

[Ahmedios]

Ok, you mean the gulf countries...

But they are only 7 countries, and you said "Most" Muslim countries....

Islamic countries are more than 50, man...

Lets stick our talk just to the Islamic Arabic countries.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Ok, you mean the gulf countries...

But they are only 7 countries, and you said "Most" Muslim countries....

Islamic countries are more than 50, man...

Alright, but rights of women in the other 49 isn't any better. They might not have any discriminatory laws against women on paper, but the "glass ceiling" in their countries isn't really any better. These countries that are "Muslim" and supposedly practice Islam, the religion that claims that women have more rights than any other, gives their women about as much rights as in Borat's world more or less.

To think that the birthplace of the greatest man to ever exist, the man who brought this beautiful religion is so back in the stone ages is embarrassing. How can you possible defend this. It's obvious that something needs to be done. We shouldn't defend our people just for the sake that they're our people. They are the scum of the earth and there's no denying that.

This whole discussion of Lebanon being a tool of Israel and the United States, or that Hezballah are fighting for Lebanon is groundless. None of these people are truly fighting for a worthy cause. There needs to be an enlightenment in the Muslim world, we need to get out of this middle ages we're stuck in. Only then can we stand our own feet.

I mean look at us, we were at one point the greatest kingdom on earth. While the West was burning their texts, we were retaining them and we were developing in every field. Whether it be architecture, mathematics, astronomy, you name it, we were doing it. Then all of a sudden we went astray, and God took that from us and gave it to people who wanted to do the opposite. That's the reason why you see that today the West has power. Where does that power come from? Knowledge. Knowledge is the key to success. If you look to the Qur'an, it mentions the the jihad of the "pen". That's what we need to be doing, not this bickering back and forth between who's "eviler" or whose the "liberator", Israel & US or Hezballah.


Anyways, that's my two cents. Now you guys may continue to butcher each other in a pointless argument.

Cheers int:

 

[ReBeL]

Alright, but rights of women in the other 49 isn't any better. They might not have any discriminatory laws against women on paper, but the "glass ceiling" in their countries isn't really any better. These countries that are "Muslim" and supposedly practice Islam, the religion that claims that women have more rights than any other, gives their women about as much rights as in Borat's world more or less.

To think that the birthplace of the greatest man to ever exist, the man who brought this beautiful religion is so back in the stone ages is embarrassing. How can you possible defend this. It's obvious that something needs to be done. We shouldn't defend our people just for the sake that they're our people. They are the scum of the earth and there's no denying that.

This whole discussion of Lebanon being a tool of Israel and the United States, or that Hezballah are fighting for Lebanon is groundless. None of these people are truly fighting for a worthy cause. There needs to be an enlightenment in the Muslim world, we need to get out of this middle ages we're stuck in. Only then can we stand our own feet.

I mean look at us, we were at one point the greatest kingdom on earth. While the West was burning their texts, we were retaining them and we were developing in every field. Whether it be architecture, mathematics, astronomy, you name it, we were doing it. Then all of a sudden we went astray, and God took that from us and gave it to people who wanted to do the opposite. That's the reason why you see that today the West has power. Where does that power come from? Knowledge. Knowledge is the key to success. If you look to the Qur'an, it mentions the the jihad of the "pen". That's what we need to be doing, not this bickering back and forth between who's "eviler" or whose the "liberator", Israel & US or Hezballah.


Anyways, that's my two cents. Now you guys may continue to butcher each other in a pointless argument.

Cheers int:

So, what do we have to do now in the Arab countries??

Give me some practical things please...

 

[Snoop]

snoop,

Thanks for gathering all of your posts where you accused me of looking at females like slaves...

You couldn't find how you reached to that conclusion, though...

Even if you're ashamed to say "sorry" for accusing me of that, I'll understand your situation because I feel your frustration...

Actually it is you who have to apologize since you blamed me for desrespecting Arabs or Muslims, when you knew I didn't do anyhting of those..

And yes, you treat women like slaves when you force her not to wear clothes that are not "apropriate" for you.. I feel like I am repeating everything I said times and times again, If you don't want to admit that, I can't help you, it is not my problem.

 

[Snoop]

So, what do we have to do now in the Arab countries??

Give me some practical things please...

Is this your reply to that great post

 

[Ahmedios]

Alright, but rights of women in the other 49 isn't any better. They might not have any discriminatory laws against women on paper, but the "glass ceiling" in their countries isn't really any better. These countries that are "Muslim" and supposedly practice Islam, the religion that claims that women have more rights than any other, gives their women about as much rights as in Borat's world more or less.

Who I'm talking to? I really don't know you to judge, but your words gave me a clue. Your style seems at first to be very convincing and logic as well, however, the most important here, is realism. Lots of people here haven't even been to a single Islamic country, even though, you are judging them as if you live in that world since your birth.

Women can't vote? can't wear bikinis? can't...etc? I feel sick when I hear such a word "can't". What if I tell you people that prostitution has become one of the most profitable professions in the Gulf area these days and all the Arabs know that and there is no problem, what is more. And here you come and tell me that women "can't".

To think that the birthplace of the greatest man to ever exist, the man who brought this beautiful religion is so back in the stone ages is embarrassing. How can you possible defend this. It's obvious that something needs to be done. We shouldn't defend our people just for the sake that they're our people. They are the scum of the earth and there's no denying that.

Why are you saying so, because of a personal experience or depending on what you watch daily on TV?

Anyways, thanks alot.

This whole discussion of Lebanon being a tool of Israel and the United States, or that Hezballah are fighting for Lebanon is groundless. None of these people are truly fighting for a worthy cause. There needs to be an enlightenment in the Muslim world, we need to get out of this middle ages we're stuck in. Only then can we stand our own feet.

Palestine and El Aksa Mosque aren't worthy to fight for? The 4 million Palestinian, who spread in the whole world, don't deserve to return to their homeland? What about the invasion of Iraq? Did you forget El Golan?

Oh, sorry...I have to be more civilised, the solution is the peaceful negotiations with both the strongest sides; The USA and Israel !!!

By the way, Palestine has been in peaceful negotiations with Israel since 1948 !!!

I mean look at us, we were at one point the greatest kingdom on earth. While the West was burning their texts, we were retaining them and we were developing in every field. Whether it be architecture, mathematics, astronomy, you name it, we were doing it. Then all of a sudden we went astray, and God took that from us and gave it to people who wanted to do the opposite. That's the reason why you see that today the West has power. Where does that power come from? Knowledge. Knowledge is the key to success. If you look to the Qur'an, it mentions the the jihad of the "pen". That's what we need to be doing, not this bickering back and forth between who's "eviler" or whose the "liberator", Israel & US or Hezballah.

How many history books did you read? Do you know the main reasons which led to such a backwardness? You said that we claim it is all related to God. In my opinion, for you to believe that the only reason which led us to the place where we are, in comarison to the whole world, is utterly ridiculous. Excuse me, your knowledge about the world you are talking about need to be completely revised. Read about the period between year 1200 and year 2000.

Anyways, that's my two cents. Now you guys may continue to butcher each other in a pointless argument.

Cheers int:

You are right, I have to admit that we are closed minded people who live in the ice age.

I salute you. int:

 

[Ahmedios]

In this thread, we read about Hezballah and Lebanon, the historical Arab-Israel conflicts, the Muslim women rights in wearing either Hijab or bikini, the backwardness of the Arabs, the political parties and the rights of minorities, to be continued later.......

I have a suggestion. Why don't you Jacques rename this thread's title? I think that "Hezballah aren't Lebanese and lots of surprises are waiting for you inside there" would be much realistic.

 

[JCK]

Do you want all the arabs to share in the Palestine-Israel conflict? In my opinion, they ought to share but everyone in the field in which he can be beneficial. By the way, Rebel hasn't urged others to go to bomb themselves, he justifies the act itself.

Most Arabs are happy that Hezballa are fighting from Lebanon against Israel and taken the burden off their shoulders. They do share in the Palestine-Israel conflict by justifying the acts of Hezballa. And you know what? They don't give a toss about Lebanon.

Who defeated the Israeli troops in the south of Lebanon?

Whoever did it has no justified reason to hold arms anymore.

How can I convince you with that??

Mate, the problem is that most of the Western people think that all the females love to get publicly nude & all males love to get drunk...

And that's really lame & humilating to the spirituality of the humankind...

You always highlight the extremes, how can one discuss with you if it is either drinking is 7aram and women wear veil on one hand and the other alternative is naked women and drunk men. Last time I checked there are tons of other situations in between.

In this thread, we read about Hezballah and Lebanon, the historical Arab-Israel conflicts, the Muslim women rights in wearing either Hijab or bikini, the backwardness of the Arabs, the political parties and the rights of minorities, to be continued later.......

I have a suggestion. Why don't you Jacques rename this thread's title? I think that "Hezballah aren't Lebanese and lots of surprises are waiting for you inside there" would be much realistic.

I actually enjoy renaming threads, but I didn't like this name. Can you come up with something more snappy?

 

[Azzurri7]

Rab, any news about 14 February? will there be any demonstrations or any predictions if there will be troubles again

Cause I am going to beirut in few days, will stay there for a week or more

I think there will be demonstrations, so far 14march leaders are discussing this, but S. Hariri, Jumblat and Geagea said that It's very likely they'll demonstrate.

Hakim(Geagea) will be on LBC tomorrow night with May Chidiak, I think he'll announce whether they'll make it or not.

 

[Ahmedios]

Most Arabs are happy that Hezballa are fighting from Lebanon against Israel and taken the burden off their shoulders. They do share in the Palestine-Israel conflict by justifying the acts of Hezballa. And you know what? They don't give a toss about Lebanon.

Do you think that we (the Arab population not their governments) aren't frustrated because of the vile political stance that most of the Arabic governments follow? Certainly, we are. I'm not justifying our negativity in the cases of both Lebanon or Palestine, I just want people to differentiate between the Arabs and the Arabic leaders, they have different aims and targets.

I said before that I need the democracy and prosperity to all the Arabs in every single Arabic country, but I have nothing to do. If I can go to war, I'll never hesitate to fend the Arabic land. Hope you'll feel my words, I'm not just typing to convince anybody here, I'm trying to express my sentiment, not just my viewpoint, to my bigger family; the Arab population

Mate, trust me, I live here in Egypt, the vast majority of people need to (I'm not going to say "help" because it isn't a proper word) fight not for Egypt but for every inch of the Arabian land.

I actually enjoy renaming threads, but I didn't like this name. Can you come up with something more snappy?

No, I think that mine is cool.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Who am I talking to? I really don't know you to judge, but your words gave me a clue. Your style seems at first to be very convincing and logic as well, however, the most important here, is realism. Lots of people here haven't even been to a single Islamic country, even though, you are judging them as if you live in that world since your birth.

Hmm, I assume you can read Arabic. So you should have figured out what countries name it says in my signature

Women can't vote? can't wear bikinis? can't...etc? I feel sick when I hear such a word "can't". What if I tell you people that prostitution has become one of the most profitable professions in the Gulf area these days and all the Arabs know that and there is no problem, what is more. And here you come and tell me that women "can't".

Look, I'm not saying that these things are something positive or anything. Nor am I saying that these governments should allow people to walk around in bikini's. Just like France doesn't' allow religious symbols in public places, or pretty much the entire West doesn't allow Muslims to do the azdhan over a loudspeaker, etc. These Arab governments have every right to "ban" bikini's if they want. But the fact remains that hijab is a personal matter. Even if women (and men too btw) are obligated to practice the type of hijab prescribed to them, it is a matter between the woman and God. No one should be forced to do it.

Btw, this is just speaking on this matter, there are bigger 10x bigger problems with those governments, this is just one part.

Why are you saying so, because of a personal experience or depending on what you watch daily on TV?

Anyways, thanks alot.

No, its right under my nose, yours too, if you want to look.

Palestine and El Aksa Mosque aren't worthy to fight for? The 4 million Palestinian, who spread in the whole world, don't deserve to return to their homeland? What about the invasion of Iraq? Did you forget El Golan?

I'm just as against Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine, the illegal and groundless occupation of Iraq as you are. Now you have to ask yourself, how did this happen? Why does this continue? And, what are we doing about it?

Like I said, when the Muslim world stopped progressing they got behind in different aspects, among that was the ability to stand on its own and protect what's our own. Since we couldn't, we were invaded and then divided into several small countries. Who's fault is it? The UK? United States? No. Its our own fault. We shouldn't have been in that vulnerable position in the first place.

So you would think that someone learned their lesson, right? No, instead they dug themselves a deeper hole. They squandered their natural resources. Of all the oil in the Arab world, how much do they own? How much has been lost to foreign companies? Btw I've lived on 4 different continents and I've yet to see a petrol company from this region.

But disregard all of that. Of all the money that is actually coming in from this, where is it all going? All I see are expensive and lavish hotels, stadiums, gigantic roads for the rich to drive on, palaces for the royalties, etc. Do you guys remember the time when people from all over the world used to come to Baghdad to attend University there? All this money that comes in can be spent on education; opening universities where you can invite the best professors in the world, write our own text books. I mean look at the Muslim world today, pretty much everyone leaves to study abroad. Is this something to be proud of?

Ever asked yourself why there are foreign armies protecting your countries? Ever wonder why a country like Pakistan has armies stationed in the UAE? Pakistan, ayoung nation of 60 years; which has about a fourth of what Arab nations possess financially.

Ever wonder where all those Arab royalties keep their money? Yes. They deposit them in foreign banks; Switzerland, UK, US, etc. Why is that??

I could go on and on about this. It's so obvious, I don't see why you can't understand it.

Oh, sorry...I have to be more civilised, the solution is the peaceful negotiations with both the strongest sides; The USA and Israel !!!

Why are they stronger? Think about it

How many history books did you read? Do you know the main reasons which led to such a backwardness? You said that we claim it is all related to God. In my opinion, for you to believe that the only reason which led us to the place where we are, in comarison to the whole world, is utterly ridiculous. Excuse me, your knowledge about the world you are talking about need to be completely revised. Read about the period between year 1200 and year 2000.

No, I'm pulling this out of my ass.

You are right, I have to admit that we are closed minded people who live in the ice age.

I salute you. int:

 

[JCK]

Do you think that we (the Arab population not their governments) aren't frustrated because of the vile political stance that most of the Arabic governments follow? Certainly, we are. I'm not justifying our negativity in the cases of both Lebanon or Palestine, I just want people to differentiate between the Arabs and the Arabic leaders, they have different aims and targets.

I said before that I need the democracy and prosperity to all the Arabs in every single Arabic country, but I have nothing to do. If I can go to war, I'll never hesitate to fend the Arabic land. Hope you'll feel my words, I'm not just typing to convince anybody here, I'm trying to express my sentiment, not just my viewpoint, to my bigger family; the Arab population

Mate, trust me, I live here in Egypt, the vast majority of people need to (I'm not going to say "help" because it isn't a proper word) fight not for Egypt but for every inch of the Arabian land.


No, I think that mine is cool.

The thing is the way I see things is that fighting never leads anywhere but more destruction and more bloodshed and we all saw what happened in Lebanon in the summer. I laugh at the headlines that said Hezballa scored a historical victory.

Well, they were able to shoot rockets, kill Israelis and so did the Israelis. The destroyed parts of Israel and so did Israel to Lebanon.

Ok where is the victory? I see my country destroyed, in need of money to be rebuilt, I see the touristic season destroyed, I see chaos in the country, I see more demonstrations that only serve Hassan "zabri" Nasralla personally and Michel "teeze" Aoun to gain power. I see more destruction, I see more fear, I see more people leaving, I see less people visiting etc. etc. etc.

So where is the victory?

Let us say all this jumbalaya that Nasralla is doing works out in his favour and he gets the power he wants, what's after? Declare war on Israel and ask all the Arabs that feel like you to come to Lebanon and fight with him? Why do it from Lebanon? Why not from Syria? Why not from Jordan?

 

[Ahmedios]

Look, I'm not saying that these things are something positive or anything. Nor am I saying that these governments should allow people to walk around in bikini's. Just like France doesn't' allow religious symbols in public places, or pretty much the entire West doesn't allow Muslims to do the azdhan over a loudspeaker, etc. These Arab governments have every right to "ban" bikini's if they want. But the fact remains that hijab is a personal matter. Even if women (and men too btw) are obligated to practice the type of hijab prescribed to them, it is a matter between the woman and God. No one should be forced to do it.

Btw, this is just speaking on this matter, there are bigger 10x bigger problems with those governments, this is just one part.

I agree with you 100% that it is all up to the woman, at the end it is the relation between her and Allah. Maybe the point of difference between us is the firmness in applying pressure on females to wear El Hijab and I'm speak here about my country, I don't remember that I see a husband forcing his wife or a father forcing his daughter to wear el Hijab, also I've never heard that the government thinks about taking an idiot unreasonable step like resembling Afghanistan in making El Hijab as a law. Anyways, there are much bigger problems as you've just said.

No, its right under my nose, yours too, if you want to look.

So, if I look under my nose, I'll perceive immediately that we are the scum of the earth. Thanks, Tahir.

I'm just as against Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine, the illegal and groundless occupation of Iraq as you are. Now you have to ask yourself, how did this happen? Why does this continue? And, what are we doing about it?

Like I said, when the Muslim world stopped progressing they got behind in different aspects, among that was the ability to stand on its own and protect what's our own. Since we couldn't, we were invaded and then divided into several small countries. Who's fault is it? The UK? United States? No. Its our own fault. We shouldn't have been in that vulnerable position in the first place.

When we are on the verge to take a crucial step in order judge and evaluate a specific era, who was responsible? How did it happen? What are we facing right now? Are we in a better circumstances compared to that of the past or not?, we must look at the issue from all the corners, not to evaluate it generally.

I've spotted, in your last paragraph, something very misleading. You are talking about more than 20 Arabic countries without concentrating in any of them, as if they all have lived the same problems with similar political and economical situations. Certainly, I know that we live in a vulnerable position but surely we should ask themselves when did the whole issue start?

The topic that you want to open needs a separate thread to be fully discussed. Who was responsible mainly for what happened in the entire Arabic countries that led them to the stand still situation that they are living these day? Every country is a complete different case.

So you would think that someone learned their lesson, right? No, instead they dug themselves a deeper hole. They squandered their natural resources. Of all the oil in the Arab world, how much do they own? How much has been lost to foreign companies? Btw I've lived on 4 different continents and I've yet to see a petrol company from this region.

But disregard all of that. Of all the money that is actually coming in from this, where is it all going? All I see are expensive and lavish hotels, stadiums, gigantic roads for the rich to drive on, palaces for the royalties, etc. Do you guys remember the time when people from all over the world used to come to Baghdad to attend University there? All this money that comes in can be spent on education; opening universities where you can invite the best professors in the world, write our own text books. I mean look at the Muslim world today, pretty much everyone leaves to study abroad. Is this something to be proud of?

The Gulf countries differs completely from the Arabic countries of North Africa, also from Syria, Lebanon. Palestine and Iraq. I agree with you in every single word, simply, because you're saying the truth. The one who is responsible for such a farce is, without a doubt, the Arabs themselves who have been busy trying to just brag themselves and living a luxurious life, and at the same time thousands were dying from starvation.

I just want you to remember something; the Gulf countries only are the Arabic countries that your theory applies for, not the likes of Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Lebanon and Palestine. Iraq has been a unique case, I don't want to talk about now.

Ever wonder where all those Arab royalties keep their money? Yes. They deposit them in foreign banks; Switzerland, UK, US, etc. Why is that??

I could go on and on about this. It's so obvious, I don't see why you can't understand it.

What are you talking about? You are talking about the plight of my life (I can't find a better expression). I said before that I don't like to talk about the Arabic Presidents and Kings because just thinking about them makes me feel sick. They are just greedy bastards whose the aims of their lifes are to keep raising their money in Switzerland's banks and to inherit their illegal place to their generations and their symbol of life; my people could go to hell when the next train comes eventually.
Man, when I accept our social life, this absolutely doesn't mean that I accept the political one. I'm totally against it, in all the Arabic countries.

Why are they stronger? Think about it

Who are we?

 

[Snoop]

If only members Add something to their mind from this thread, there is really a good discussion is going on here, Tahir is also adding reasonable thoughts here, I agree with most of his points (I hope Rebel doesn't announce me Arab Hater for that :faq1: )..

But there is something I strongly disagree with you Tahir, France's Law for the religous Symbols is Arguable, it could be good or bad, it is something to do with the level of mind (how open it is). If you are a believer, you would ask the freedom to wear or have those Symbols, But If you are not, you might think in different way, those symbols sometimes are provocative or shows some fanatism, but seriously, why can't believers care that much about it?? it's not like you will go to hell without those Symbols..

About the Loudspeakers of mosques, churches or whatever, same here, If you are not a believer, well, to be honest, It is Annoying to hear Azan at 4 Am for example, or the time when you try to get some sleep. no? don't take it offensive, but try to look at it from the non-believer's point of view.

But comparing Bikinis to these like claiming it is acceptable against France's or westerns law about religious issues? is complete non sense.. Bikini is not a symbol of Christianity or any other Religion (be it Satan or Satan folowers).. it's not like the only people who are wearing bikinis are Christians, Try Turkey for example, or Lebanon or other non christian countries, it has something to do with freedom, freedom of thoughts.. But Education is a must to bring the mind to that level.