The Doped Lady (4 Viewers)

The Pado

Filthy Gobbo
Jul 12, 2002
9,939
Screw those Dilberts! Do not derail this thread, or I'll throw a bag of urine at you.


How is it that the sporting authorities have blood samples of Juventus players? Back in the 1990's, I thought all post-match doping tests consisted only of urine samples.
 

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OP
Kaiser Franco
Dec 27, 2003
1,982
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #102
    Yes Pado, but times have changed. These new drugs are simply impossible to detect in urine samples, so the only way to determine their use (not their presence) is by studying their effects on the blood, such as an abnormal variation of hematocrit value. And Juventus' medical staff has collected data on blood values from those years, which does show surprising increases in the hematocrit values of some players. In '96, Del Piero, Deschamps and Di Livio's values rapidly raised from 42,3, 43,2 and and 43,4 to 48,4, 51,9 and 51,2 respectively (a > 50 hematocrit value in cycling is considered as life-threatening and earns you immediate suspension). The only substance known to have such a drastic effect on hematocrit values is EPO. Incidentally, those same players have been absorbing high quantities of iron in that period as well, which notoriously reduces the side effects of EPO.

    Note that according to the Italian anti-doping legislation, not only is taking illegal substances such as EPO a crime, but so is taking legal medications while you are perfectly fit. When a player passes a urine test at the end of a game, he must list all the legal products he has taken in the past week to the authorities. Based on these declarations, the prosecution has determined the use of psychotropic drugs, anti-depressors, miocardiotopics (not sure about the English name) etc. at Juventus. Agricola has justified this through the heavy playing schedule (3 games in a week) which made some players tired and thus called for medical assistance. But the problem is that these meds have been given to players (Ferrara and Ravanelli) at a time when they were often benched, hence not under enough physical strain to justify their use. So in that respect, the prosecution claims that these legal substances were taken to enhance the players' performances.
     

    The Arif

    Senior Member
    Jan 31, 2004
    12,564
    Jail threat for Juve duo
    Monday 25 October, 2004


    The prosecution in the Juventus doping trial has asked for two of the club’s staff to be handed prison sentences.

    Chief executive Antonio Giraudo and medical officer Riccardo Agricola are currently on trial, accused of allegedly handing banned substances to players between 1994 and 1998.

    The pair deny the allegations but public prosecutor Raffaele Guariniello has today called for stiff punishments.

    Guariniello would like Giraudo to serve 25 months, while Agricola could face a three year and two month sentence.

    Guariniello opened his investigation in the summer of 1998 after then Roma boss Zdenek Zeman claimed that Italian football had a drug problem.

    The trial began four years later, in January 2002, with a number of players – past and present – being questioned as witnesses.

    The players insist they were never given illegal substances by the Serie A giants. The trial continues.
     

    Eaglesnake_1

    Senior Member
    Mar 28, 2004
    2,308
    Doping, Grande Stevens: Juve non ha alcuna responsabilità penale
    Mar 26 Ott, 11:42 AM




    TORINO (Reuters) - Il presidente della Juventus Franzo Grande Stevens ha detto oggi di ritenere che nel comportamento della Juventus "non ci sono responsabilità penali".



    Riferendosi al processo per doping in corso a Torino, Grande Stevens ha fatto riferimento oggi a un parere "pro-veritate" che ha chiesto al professore Carlo Federico Grosso (ex vicepresidente del Consiglio superiore della magistratura).


    "Questo parere dice che non ci sono reati commessi dalla Juventus e non ci sono responsabilità penali", ha detto Grande Stevens rispondendo a un'azionista nel corso dell'assemblea della Juventus Spa.


    "E' un parere che scagiona la Juventus da responsabilità penali e conferma il giudizio del Coni, che nel 2000 aveva ritenuto corretto il comportamento della Juventus".


    Ieri, nell'ambito del processo sul presunto uso di farmaci dopanti da parte dei giocatori della squadra bianconera, il procuratore aggiunto di Torino Raffaele Guariniello ha chiesto la condanna a tre anni e due mesi di carcere per il capo dello staff medico della Juventus Riccardo Agricola e a due anni e un mese di carcere per l'amministratore delegato della società, Antonio Giraudo
     
    OP
    Kaiser Franco
    Dec 27, 2003
    1,982
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #110
    Hey even I cannot know everything! Instead of the sarcasm, why not address the points I made in my previous posts, Eaglesnake?

    Since Montezemolo and the Elkann bros took over at the head of FIAT after Umberto's demise, I was assuming that they did the same as far as Juve's chairmanship is concerned.

    This Grande Stevens guy, he seems very discreet, as I don't recall reading an interview of him or seeing him on TV. I don't think many here had heard of him either before he became your Prez. Plus he is 74, so my guess is that he is only there to make the transition between the Agnelli's and whoever comes next, probably John Elkann.

    Anyway, as far as the article is concerned, what's the point of it? Grande Stevens asked a magistrate what he thought of the Juve trial and the guy told him he believes Juve are innocent. And?
     
    Aug 1, 2003
    17,696
    Grande Stevens: “No criminal liability”

    During the meeting of Juventus’ shareholders, Juventus’s President, lawyer Franzo Grande Stevens, has announced that he had asked Professor Carlo Federico Grosso for a pro veritate opinion regarding the current trial in Turin. Here are the words spoken by the President for the announcement:

    “As for the trial, I must tell you that, being the President of the Club, I couldn’t remain insensitive to this situation, so (…) I thought it was my duty to ask for a pro veritate opinion to someone I trust. (…) Someone who, in my opinion, owns all the most important reliability requirements. He’s a Professor of Criminal Law in Turin and has been President of a Parliamentary Commission for anti-doping as well as vice President of the Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura (i.e. the Italian Magistrates’ Governing Council) (…). I’ve asked Professor Carlo Federico GROSSO for a pro veritate opinion. (…)
    I’ve had his opinion in these days. His pro veritate opinion is that Juventus’s officials have committed no crime. There is no criminal liability.
    I’ve passed this opinion to the criminal lawyers who will make use of it as a submission, they will use it in the case or will deposit it; in any case, I thought it was my duty, to my and your tranquillity as shareholders who represent all of Juventus supporters and lovers. I thought it was the proper thing to do. Therefore, I can tell you that the above mentioned pro veritate opinion completely acquits Juventus of any criminal liability at all. (…)”


    ps - me, I knew he was president. made a thread bout it sometime ago I think. :extatic:
     

    Eaglesnake_1

    Senior Member
    Mar 28, 2004
    2,308
    ++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
    Hey even I cannot know everything! Instead of the sarcasm, why not address the points I made in my previous posts, Eaglesnake?

    Since Montezemolo and the Elkann bros took over at the head of FIAT after Umberto's demise, I was assuming that they did the same as far as Juve's chairmanship is concerned.

    This Grande Stevens guy, he seems very discreet, as I don't recall reading an interview of him or seeing him on TV. I don't think many here had heard of him either before he became your Prez. Plus he is 74, so my guess is that he is only there to make the transition between the Agnelli's and whoever comes next, probably John Elkann.

    Anyway, as far as the article is concerned, what's the point of it? Grande Stevens asked a magistrate what he thought of the Juve trial and the guy told him he believes Juve are innocent. And?
    Im sorry, no pun intented Kaiser.....probably my gobbo cuore betrayed me:down:
    I dont address the points made in your previous posts because your arguments are based and focused in the prosecutors point of view; there are studies presented by the defense( elaborated by Northamerican and swiss hematologists) about the way their are interpreting analysis and concluding things; as an example, you said "The only substance known to have such a drastic effect on hematocrit values is EPO" and, well , i have three doctors in my family and they consider that is simply not true.
    Over all, what sounds fishy is why all the defense scientific evidence has been desestimated...

    And The magistrate dont said that Juve is innocent, he said that there is no penal responsability involved...
     
    OP
    Kaiser Franco
    Dec 27, 2003
    1,982
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #113
    Can you name one legal substance used by professional athletes that is capable of raising the hematocrite level by 10%? (btw, the latest hormone popular among them, THG, apparently has the same effects as EPO without raising the hematocrite value : the Dr Strangeloves really are 10 years ahead of conventional doctors). And could you be more specific as to what scientific evidence presented by the defence has been dismissed?
     

    The Pado

    Filthy Gobbo
    Jul 12, 2002
    9,939
    Libero, our Milanista friend, the long-serving Juventus President Vittorio Chiusano passed away in the summer of 2003, only a couple days prior to Juve defeating your beloved Milan and your referee Collina in the Supercoppa Italiana, in New York. Shortly thereafter, Juventus appointed Avv. Franzo Grande Stevens as President. I recall that he was a long time friend of the Agnelli family, and I believe he is from Sicilia.
     
    OP
    Kaiser Franco
    Dec 27, 2003
    1,982
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #118
    Pado, "my" referee Collina:confused:?

    I understand that Grande Stevens holds the same position as Chiusano - a quite more prominent character of the FIAT galaxy who although he bore the title of "Presidente" was much closer to the figure of managing director held by our very own Vampirone Galliani, but doesn't one of the Agnelli heirs play the role of Honorary Chairman just like Umberto and Gianni used to or the Berlusca still does at Milan?
     

    Eaglesnake_1

    Senior Member
    Mar 28, 2004
    2,308
    ++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
    Pado, "my" referee Collina:confused:?

    I understand that Grande Stevens holds the same position as Chiusano - a quite more prominent character of the FIAT galaxy who although he bore the title of "Presidente" was much closer to the figure of managing director held by our very own Vampirone Galliani, but doesn't one of the Agnelli heirs play the role of Honorary Chairman just like Umberto and Gianni used to or the Berlusca still does at Milan?
    This matter was discussed in the last board meeting, and they consider is still premature to put Umberto`s son or any of the Elkann boys in that role. Jhon Elkan, BTW, is having regular meetings with Giampiero Bonperti in order to prepare him to become Juve chairman....
     

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