The death of the premiership... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chxta
- Start date
Intro said:
OK - you answered my questions by making both Capello and Ancelotti look wrong 
But I agree with you in someways - but it is a simple trade-off I believe (except Barca fans who believe Rijkaard is the answer). The same post-mortem is being had in this country on Mourinho which is stupid considering he is already a UEFA and CL winner.
You can't have your cake and eat it so to speak. You seem to have a misunderstanding on the quality of the Juve squad. Simply it is no better than Milan - in my opinion it is worse. Capello however can galvanise this squad into a team which plays with intensity which must be admired. They are winning the league not losing it - despite a helping hand from Milan. But then with CL we flip - as Ancelotti treating his players like Kings has to contend with only that (the players will say its their priority each season but only becomes it after the first 15 games or so of Serie A). Now Milan have the CL where they are focussed and to their credit an enormous self-belief. But it only needs one bad performance (or 6 minutes as witnessed in Istanbul) to be defeated in this quest. Really Milan or no team that aims solely for the CL can be considered smart considering the plateau of quality at the top of the European game.
So Juventus and Chelsea do the reverse - their style grabs them the league and leaves them in a healthy position once the CL gets to the 'business end'. However, styles and attitudes cannot be changesd this late on and perhaps the toll is taken of a long season. In many ways Juventus and Chelsea have no less of an advantage than others at this stage.
But you will get the situation you want as next year once Ancelotti is gone at Milan it won't need a change of playing personnel but just a fresh coach to inject the work ethos and I predict Milan too will start at least with the same intensity - then Juventus with (or without) Capello will feel pressure for the first time for the Scudetto and if they fail how will you feel then?
What is it you want the Scudetto and CL? If so name me the last team to achieve league and European success not from a 'Mickey Mouse' league?
But I agree with you in someways - but it is a simple trade-off I believe (except Barca fans who believe Rijkaard is the answer). The same post-mortem is being had in this country on Mourinho which is stupid considering he is already a UEFA and CL winner.
You can't have your cake and eat it so to speak. You seem to have a misunderstanding on the quality of the Juve squad. Simply it is no better than Milan - in my opinion it is worse. Capello however can galvanise this squad into a team which plays with intensity which must be admired. They are winning the league not losing it - despite a helping hand from Milan. But then with CL we flip - as Ancelotti treating his players like Kings has to contend with only that (the players will say its their priority each season but only becomes it after the first 15 games or so of Serie A). Now Milan have the CL where they are focussed and to their credit an enormous self-belief. But it only needs one bad performance (or 6 minutes as witnessed in Istanbul) to be defeated in this quest. Really Milan or no team that aims solely for the CL can be considered smart considering the plateau of quality at the top of the European game.
So Juventus and Chelsea do the reverse - their style grabs them the league and leaves them in a healthy position once the CL gets to the 'business end'. However, styles and attitudes cannot be changesd this late on and perhaps the toll is taken of a long season. In many ways Juventus and Chelsea have no less of an advantage than others at this stage.
But you will get the situation you want as next year once Ancelotti is gone at Milan it won't need a change of playing personnel but just a fresh coach to inject the work ethos and I predict Milan too will start at least with the same intensity - then Juventus with (or without) Capello will feel pressure for the first time for the Scudetto and if they fail how will you feel then?
What is it you want the Scudetto and CL? If so name me the last team to achieve league and European success not from a 'Mickey Mouse' league?
And you haven't answered my questions
As the saying goes:
"...football is a small blanket - you can cover your head but expose your feet or cover your feet and expose your head"
This is true of playing styles but also the league/CL balance too until I see a team that is SO much better than the opposition (i.e. as Brazil is going into a WC) and as you can tell I do not believe the current Barcelona team is that.
So that is precisely what I am saying. No team has defended this trophy and worse still no nation has defended it either (before Arsenal fans get all excited with today's draw!).
So which is it you want? To win or be finalists of the CL every 2-3 years? Or be known without doubt as the top side within your country. There are occasions within the calendar year when regardless which you are you will be dissapointed unless having both.
As for those questions...well they are too technical for a non-Juve fan to answer so there are many members on this forum who could answer in more depth.
"...football is a small blanket - you can cover your head but expose your feet or cover your feet and expose your head"
This is true of playing styles but also the league/CL balance too until I see a team that is SO much better than the opposition (i.e. as Brazil is going into a WC) and as you can tell I do not believe the current Barcelona team is that.
So that is precisely what I am saying. No team has defended this trophy and worse still no nation has defended it either (before Arsenal fans get all excited with today's draw!).
So which is it you want? To win or be finalists of the CL every 2-3 years? Or be known without doubt as the top side within your country. There are occasions within the calendar year when regardless which you are you will be dissapointed unless having both.
As for those questions...well they are too technical for a non-Juve fan to answer so there are many members on this forum who could answer in more depth.
Some food for thought:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3361-2026891,00.html
Vital statistics point to alarming trends
By Gabriele Marcotti
Supporters have never had it so good — up to a point
YOU WOULD PROBABLY NEED A statistician to calculate the odds of what is happening across Europe’s top leagues, where — if trends continue — the title will be won, on average, by 18 points.
Going into the weekend’s action, Lyons were nine points clear of Bordeaux in France, Bayern Munich were eight ahead of Werder Bremen in Germany, Barcelona were 12 up on Valencia in Spain and Juventus eight to the good over Inter Milan in Italy. Meanwhile, in the Barclays Premiership, Chelsea nurse a 15-point lead over Manchester United.
Four of these five teams are on track to break records. Bayern’s performance is the best since the creation of the Bundesliga in 1963. Lyons’ is the best since the Second World War, while for Juventus it is the best in Serie A history. In Spain, Barcelona are on track to secure more points per match than the Real Madrid team of 1960-61, which featured Ferenc Puskas and Alfredo Di Stéfano. And, in the Premiership, Chelsea are projected to do better than any team since Preston North End in 1888-89, the inaugural league season.
What this suggests is that Europe’s “Fab Five” are not only good, they are freakishly good, statistically among the best ever. The fact that all five also won their respective titles last season indicates that their dominance is not casual, but the result of careful planning. And the fact that, in each case, they are on pace to improve on last year’s totals shows that complacency has not set in.
Most would pretty much agree on everything up to this point, but drawing broader conclusions on the state of the game is trickier. One school of thought says that this dominance is the result of money. They argue that domestic success is unattainable without the deepest of pockets and that these clubs are simply the richest in their respective leagues. The problem with this argument is that it is true only to a point. While each of these clubs are financial powerhouses, only Chelsea, and to a lesser degree Bayern, rank head and shoulders above their domestic peers. Everywhere else there is competition in economic terms.
Others suggest that the secret of their success lies with the managers. While this may be true in the case of Fabio Capello at Juventus and José Mourinho at Chelsea, both proven winners, it is worth noting that neither Felix Magath, of Bayern, nor Frank Rijkaard, of Barcelona, had won much of note as managers before arriving at their present clubs.
Still others take these numbers as evidence of a general lack of quality across European leagues. The general theory is that all the talent has gravitated to the top club and the rest of the league are simply a bunch of punchbags. Among the many nefarious side-effects of this condition, they insist, is a widespread lack of interest, reflected in falling attendances.
Except attendances are not really falling. Crowds are up in Germany, France and Spain. In England they are down, but only 0.3 per cent, hardly significant. The only league that has suffered a considerable dip is Italy, but much of that has to do with new stadium security measures, as well as the absence from Serie A of clubs with traditionally large followings, such as Napoli, Torino and Genoa.
Arguments such as these — that one club is dominating because the leagues are mediocre — appear difficult to refute because what constitutes a “good” team is necessarily subjective. Fortunately, we do have an objective measure of a team’s quality relative to the rest of the league: the points total. And a quick look at the numbers would tend to refute this theory.
In Italy, second-placed Inter are on pace to reach 88 points, enough to win the Scudetto in four of the past five seasons. Equally, in France, Bordeaux’s projected total of 74 points would have won them Le Championnat twice in the past five years and the same can be said for Bremen in Germany. The implication here is obvious. Inter, Bordeaux and Bremen are very good teams, despite being far behind the leaders, who happen to be even better
Rather than worrying excessively over the competitive imbalance in Europe’s top leagues, perhaps we should appreciate how extreme the situation is and recognise how exceptional the present league leaders are. We can probably accept that this season is an “outlier”, a statistical freak, instead of a sign of larger trend. Yet if the situation should persist next year, well, perhaps it will be time to be worry.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3361-2026891,00.html
Vital statistics point to alarming trends
By Gabriele Marcotti
Supporters have never had it so good — up to a point
YOU WOULD PROBABLY NEED A statistician to calculate the odds of what is happening across Europe’s top leagues, where — if trends continue — the title will be won, on average, by 18 points.
Going into the weekend’s action, Lyons were nine points clear of Bordeaux in France, Bayern Munich were eight ahead of Werder Bremen in Germany, Barcelona were 12 up on Valencia in Spain and Juventus eight to the good over Inter Milan in Italy. Meanwhile, in the Barclays Premiership, Chelsea nurse a 15-point lead over Manchester United.
Four of these five teams are on track to break records. Bayern’s performance is the best since the creation of the Bundesliga in 1963. Lyons’ is the best since the Second World War, while for Juventus it is the best in Serie A history. In Spain, Barcelona are on track to secure more points per match than the Real Madrid team of 1960-61, which featured Ferenc Puskas and Alfredo Di Stéfano. And, in the Premiership, Chelsea are projected to do better than any team since Preston North End in 1888-89, the inaugural league season.
What this suggests is that Europe’s “Fab Five” are not only good, they are freakishly good, statistically among the best ever. The fact that all five also won their respective titles last season indicates that their dominance is not casual, but the result of careful planning. And the fact that, in each case, they are on pace to improve on last year’s totals shows that complacency has not set in.
Most would pretty much agree on everything up to this point, but drawing broader conclusions on the state of the game is trickier. One school of thought says that this dominance is the result of money. They argue that domestic success is unattainable without the deepest of pockets and that these clubs are simply the richest in their respective leagues. The problem with this argument is that it is true only to a point. While each of these clubs are financial powerhouses, only Chelsea, and to a lesser degree Bayern, rank head and shoulders above their domestic peers. Everywhere else there is competition in economic terms.
Others suggest that the secret of their success lies with the managers. While this may be true in the case of Fabio Capello at Juventus and José Mourinho at Chelsea, both proven winners, it is worth noting that neither Felix Magath, of Bayern, nor Frank Rijkaard, of Barcelona, had won much of note as managers before arriving at their present clubs.
Still others take these numbers as evidence of a general lack of quality across European leagues. The general theory is that all the talent has gravitated to the top club and the rest of the league are simply a bunch of punchbags. Among the many nefarious side-effects of this condition, they insist, is a widespread lack of interest, reflected in falling attendances.
Except attendances are not really falling. Crowds are up in Germany, France and Spain. In England they are down, but only 0.3 per cent, hardly significant. The only league that has suffered a considerable dip is Italy, but much of that has to do with new stadium security measures, as well as the absence from Serie A of clubs with traditionally large followings, such as Napoli, Torino and Genoa.
Arguments such as these — that one club is dominating because the leagues are mediocre — appear difficult to refute because what constitutes a “good” team is necessarily subjective. Fortunately, we do have an objective measure of a team’s quality relative to the rest of the league: the points total. And a quick look at the numbers would tend to refute this theory.
In Italy, second-placed Inter are on pace to reach 88 points, enough to win the Scudetto in four of the past five seasons. Equally, in France, Bordeaux’s projected total of 74 points would have won them Le Championnat twice in the past five years and the same can be said for Bremen in Germany. The implication here is obvious. Inter, Bordeaux and Bremen are very good teams, despite being far behind the leaders, who happen to be even better
Rather than worrying excessively over the competitive imbalance in Europe’s top leagues, perhaps we should appreciate how extreme the situation is and recognise how exceptional the present league leaders are. We can probably accept that this season is an “outlier”, a statistical freak, instead of a sign of larger trend. Yet if the situation should persist next year, well, perhaps it will be time to be worry.
Not sure exactly what you're getting at. Having a "lack of minimal technique" is a contradiction in terms, you'd have to explain that further. However on to the national team, I'd argue we're second favourites to win this world cup, which is more than I can say for either Italy or Spain. We've probably got the best all round team of the bunch and are certainly capable in my view of mixing it with the big boys.
You've got the Italy NT who usually draw the first two league games, scrape a lucky victory in the last one then cry foul when they go out
the spanish NT who haven't come close to looking like winning anything for ages, certainly my lifetime.. so really not sure what you're getting at.
You've got the Italy NT who usually draw the first two league games, scrape a lucky victory in the last one then cry foul when they go out
the spanish NT who haven't come close to looking like winning anything for ages, certainly my lifetime.. so really not sure what you're getting at.