The dark side of Dubai (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter The Curr
- Start date
thats what the mullahs say
A general response here to what you're saying:
No where in the Qur'an does it say that society needs to be ruled by Islamic law aka Sharia. So your question (bold) is irrelevant.
-http://www.alislam.org/books/distinct/index.html
Yet again you prove how little knowledge you have of Islam. It's like you just walked into a room and saw one of your friends slapping another friend and you start beating him up without trying to find out why he did it.
When Islam started spreading among the Meccans they were persecuted and many left. At one point the life of the Prophet was in danger and he had to escape to Yathrib (Medina). This is where Islam began to rapidly spread and the Meccans who thought they had dealt with the problem started attacking the Muslims. At this point a revelation to the Prophet Muhammad was given and permission was granted to defend his people. It is this very story (a summary of it) I'm telling you that relates your statement above and nothing else.
Wrong and I can prove it by simply giving you two verses from the Qur'an:
and
Would you say the government of Iran adheres to those two verses above? I certainly don't think so.
No where in the Qur'an does it say that society needs to be ruled by Islamic law aka Sharia. So your question (bold) is irrelevant.
-http://www.alislam.org/books/distinct/index.html
Yet again you prove how little knowledge you have of Islam. It's like you just walked into a room and saw one of your friends slapping another friend and you start beating him up without trying to find out why he did it.
When Islam started spreading among the Meccans they were persecuted and many left. At one point the life of the Prophet was in danger and he had to escape to Yathrib (Medina). This is where Islam began to rapidly spread and the Meccans who thought they had dealt with the problem started attacking the Muslims. At this point a revelation to the Prophet Muhammad was given and permission was granted to defend his people. It is this very story (a summary of it) I'm telling you that relates your statement above and nothing else.
Wrong and I can prove it by simply giving you two verses from the Qur'an:
and
Would you say the government of Iran adheres to those two verses above? I certainly don't think so.
Actually this was one of the examples I could use to show that Islam (or at least how people interpret it here) was designed for a medieval society. These rules worked back then. Today they have lost relevance.
People like such a system, because that way they don't have to think. They don't have to make any moral choices. You see people who want the USSR back as well..
Ze, you completely missed my point. I said that anyone who would like to could find a reference to some sort of Holy War in the Qoran. It's easy. You could do it with the Bible as well. And that's because it was written in the Middle Ages. I'm not saying that interpreting it like that is right, I'm just saying that I understand that people could do it.
People like such a system, because that way they don't have to think. They don't have to make any moral choices. You see people who want the USSR back as well..
Ze, you completely missed my point. I said that anyone who would like to could find a reference to some sort of Holy War in the Qoran. It's easy. You could do it with the Bible as well. And that's because it was written in the Middle Ages. I'm not saying that interpreting it like that is right, I'm just saying that I understand that people could do it.
Turk, you want to know how you can tell a government regime is wrong?
when a local Iranian newspaper publishes an anti-government article, the paper gets shut down, the writers/editors of the paper get arrested and thrown to jail.
in a good system, the people should not be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of its people.
when a local Iranian newspaper publishes an anti-government article, the paper gets shut down, the writers/editors of the paper get arrested and thrown to jail.
in a good system, the people should not be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of its people.
Let me get this straight. You're saying because it was written in the Middle Ages, anyone today can take those verses and use them anyway they want? But couldn't that happen today with modern and secular beliefs?
Have the rules of the Geneva convention, a modern secular treaties never been broken or bent? Have modern secular rules of moral and business ethics never been broken or bent? Has the modern and secular world which preaches freedom, peace, and equality always practiced it?
You show me how the secular world has not gone against, bent, or found loopholes in its own ideals and I'll stop right now.
Have the rules of the Geneva convention, a modern secular treaties never been broken or bent? Have modern secular rules of moral and business ethics never been broken or bent? Has the modern and secular world which preaches freedom, peace, and equality always practiced it?
You show me how the secular world has not gone against, bent, or found loopholes in its own ideals and I'll stop right now.
Yes.
The rest of your post is irrelevant for two reasons:
1. Secular beliefs can change. They are not fixed. Which is why we don't use texts that were written in the Middle Ages. At least not in the way you use the Qoran. Our prime minister should not believe that Il Principe is the best book out there.
2. Of course those rules have been broken. But the rules of the Geneva convention and other modern secular treaties are a lot clearer than the Qoran.
The rest of your post is irrelevant for two reasons:
1. Secular beliefs can change. They are not fixed. Which is why we don't use texts that were written in the Middle Ages. At least not in the way you use the Qoran. Our prime minister should not believe that Il Principe is the best book out there.
2. Of course those rules have been broken. But the rules of the Geneva convention and other modern secular treaties are a lot clearer than the Qoran.
Of course I would. We have Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc living in Iran in peace. Of course they are the minority and like many of other countries their rights aren't practically equal to the majority's but they sure aren't obliged to convert to Islam.
Unlike what Salman thinks and unlike what you also may assume I'm not anti Islam per se. I'm strictly against Islam/any other religion ruling the society though. If you find Qoran's instructions useful up to this point of time, you should be free to practice them and to have Islam as your religion (no matter if I find it stupid or not). But religions start to corrupt the whole society when they're merged with the government. You on the other hand know that Muhammad's first real objective was to establish an Islamic society ruling by Qoran's teachings. Moreover, Qoran's teachings are not aimed at people individually. So, first you tell me do you believe that there should be an Islamic society being governed based on Qoran's instructions or not? You wouldn't say NO to this question because if you say so, a striking part of Qoran's guidance and instructions will lose their meanings because they happen to be directed towards "a group of" Muslims. I give you two examples:
1-إِنَّما جَزاءُ الَّذينَ يُحارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَ رَسُولَهُ وَ يَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَساداً أَنْ يُـقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْديهِمْ وَ أَرْجُلُهُمْ مِنْ خِلاف أَوْ يُنْفَوْا مِنَ الأَرْضِ
[The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.]
2- وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُواْ أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاء بِمَا كَسَبَا نَكَالاً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ
[And as for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands in retribution of their offence as an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, wise]
Don't you need a government, an Islamic government, to execute those orders? You can't be a Muslim as an individual, following Qoran's guidance and then completely ignoring such commands. Can you? Therefor you have to believe in an Islamic government existence. Now tell me, do you believe that some of Qoran's instructions need to be moderated or you're for executing them word for word? If you're for changing some of the instructions, so tell me what's the point of insisting on following something that needs to be changed drastically? Otherwise, tell me do you believe that the examples I'll give you still work in this century:
* وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ
[And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.]
* يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ
[Allah charge you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females]
* يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
[They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.]
Tahir, I just want to know your side on this matter. If I interpret Qoran as a collection of instructions which was descended upon the Arab of almost 1500 years ago, I'd say I have nothing towards it but sheer respect. In a society where the men used to bury their daughters alive, a man kissed her daughter when she was born. The man was
Muhammad. Qoran soberly criticizes the men who were killing their daughters:
وَإِذَا الْمَوْؤُودَةُ سُئِلَتْ [And when the girl child that was buried alive is asked], بِأَيِّ ذَنبٍ قُتِلَتْ [For what sin she was slain].
I don't expect Qoran to put all men and women in an equal spot in such a severely macho society at the very first place. In a society where women had absolutely no rights, Qoran ordered Muslims to take their daughters into account as well as their sons when they were about to bequeath their properties. Oh and all these happened in 1500 yrs ago. It's ironic that only in 1979, the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women was adopted by the United Nations, isn't it Seven?
In such a racist society of barbarian Arabs, a man came and chose Bilal al-Habeshi, a black Ethiopian slave, as the first muezzin of the Islamic faith and yes the man was Muhammad. It's ironic that less than 200 years have passed since Emancipation Proclamation, isn't it Seven?
Having said this all, I do believe that the Islamic instructions rationally need to be updated/modified. They once were useful to people but they have no impact on the mankind of this century anymore. What do we have in Islamic societies now Tahir? Poverty, lack of knowledge, ignorance, superstitions, stupidity and a bunch of people sticking to their grand grand grand parents' beliefs, reluctant to think about them or use their brains, waiting for a miracle or even worse, waiting for death to deliver them from this hell to the promised heaven. Unfortunately they are sticking to the most trivial parts of Qoran while totally ignoring the umpteen verses in which they've been asked to think:
لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ [that you may give thought], أَفَلاَ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ [Will you not then take thought?], ...
Putting all those mindless people aside, you see a bunch of extremists in Muslim countries who are outrageously brainwashed by some radicals. I'm not going to put the blame on those radicals though who are only benefiting from the stupidity of people. Religions, unfortunately, have got the potential to be the most lethal phenomenon.
Unlike what Salman thinks and unlike what you also may assume I'm not anti Islam per se. I'm strictly against Islam/any other religion ruling the society though. If you find Qoran's instructions useful up to this point of time, you should be free to practice them and to have Islam as your religion (no matter if I find it stupid or not). But religions start to corrupt the whole society when they're merged with the government. You on the other hand know that Muhammad's first real objective was to establish an Islamic society ruling by Qoran's teachings. Moreover, Qoran's teachings are not aimed at people individually. So, first you tell me do you believe that there should be an Islamic society being governed based on Qoran's instructions or not? You wouldn't say NO to this question because if you say so, a striking part of Qoran's guidance and instructions will lose their meanings because they happen to be directed towards "a group of" Muslims. I give you two examples:
1-إِنَّما جَزاءُ الَّذينَ يُحارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَ رَسُولَهُ وَ يَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَساداً أَنْ يُـقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْديهِمْ وَ أَرْجُلُهُمْ مِنْ خِلاف أَوْ يُنْفَوْا مِنَ الأَرْضِ
[The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.]
2- وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُواْ أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاء بِمَا كَسَبَا نَكَالاً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ
[And as for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands in retribution of their offence as an exemplary punishment from Allah. And Allah is Mighty, wise]
Don't you need a government, an Islamic government, to execute those orders? You can't be a Muslim as an individual, following Qoran's guidance and then completely ignoring such commands. Can you? Therefor you have to believe in an Islamic government existence. Now tell me, do you believe that some of Qoran's instructions need to be moderated or you're for executing them word for word? If you're for changing some of the instructions, so tell me what's the point of insisting on following something that needs to be changed drastically? Otherwise, tell me do you believe that the examples I'll give you still work in this century:
* وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ
[And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.]
* يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ
[Allah charge you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females]
* يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
[They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.]
Tahir, I just want to know your side on this matter. If I interpret Qoran as a collection of instructions which was descended upon the Arab of almost 1500 years ago, I'd say I have nothing towards it but sheer respect. In a society where the men used to bury their daughters alive, a man kissed her daughter when she was born. The man was
Muhammad. Qoran soberly criticizes the men who were killing their daughters:
وَإِذَا الْمَوْؤُودَةُ سُئِلَتْ [And when the girl child that was buried alive is asked], بِأَيِّ ذَنبٍ قُتِلَتْ [For what sin she was slain].
I don't expect Qoran to put all men and women in an equal spot in such a severely macho society at the very first place. In a society where women had absolutely no rights, Qoran ordered Muslims to take their daughters into account as well as their sons when they were about to bequeath their properties. Oh and all these happened in 1500 yrs ago. It's ironic that only in 1979, the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women was adopted by the United Nations, isn't it Seven?
In such a racist society of barbarian Arabs, a man came and chose Bilal al-Habeshi, a black Ethiopian slave, as the first muezzin of the Islamic faith and yes the man was Muhammad. It's ironic that less than 200 years have passed since Emancipation Proclamation, isn't it Seven?
Having said this all, I do believe that the Islamic instructions rationally need to be updated/modified. They once were useful to people but they have no impact on the mankind of this century anymore. What do we have in Islamic societies now Tahir? Poverty, lack of knowledge, ignorance, superstitions, stupidity and a bunch of people sticking to their grand grand grand parents' beliefs, reluctant to think about them or use their brains, waiting for a miracle or even worse, waiting for death to deliver them from this hell to the promised heaven. Unfortunately they are sticking to the most trivial parts of Qoran while totally ignoring the umpteen verses in which they've been asked to think:
لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ [that you may give thought], أَفَلاَ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ [Will you not then take thought?], ...
Putting all those mindless people aside, you see a bunch of extremists in Muslim countries who are outrageously brainwashed by some radicals. I'm not going to put the blame on those radicals though who are only benefiting from the stupidity of people. Religions, unfortunately, have got the potential to be the most lethal phenomenon.