The dark side of Dubai (5 Viewers)

[Seven]

I don't expect Qoran to put all men and women in an equal spot in such a severely macho society at the very first place. In a society where women had absolutely no rights, Qoran ordered Muslims to take their daughters into account as well as their sons when they were about to bequeath their properties. Oh and all these happened in 1500 yrs ago. It's ironic that only in 1979, the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women was adopted by the United Nations, isn't it Seven?

In such a racist society of barbarian Arabs, a man came and chose Bilal al-Habeshi, a black Ethiopian slave, as the first muezzin of the Islamic faith and yes the man was Muhammad. It's ironic that less than 200 years have passed since Emancipation Proclamation, isn't it Seven?

Having said this all, I do believe that the Islamic instructions rationally need to be updated/modified. They once were useful to people but they have no impact on the mankind of this century anymore. What do we have in Islamic societies now Tahir? Poverty, lack of knowledge, ignorance, superstitions, stupidity and a bunch of people sticking to their grand grand grand parents' beliefs, reluctant to think about them or use their brains, waiting for a miracle or even worse, waiting for death to deliver them from this hell to the promised heaven. Unfortunately they are sticking to the most trivial parts of Qoran while totally ignoring the umpteen verses in which they've been asked to think:

With all respect, but I don't know what point you are trying to make. The UN is an organisation of nations. So you can't really point at the UN if you want to show the merits of Islam or the problems of the West.

And even if it would in fact be some sort of an argument, I ask myself the question of what today's reality looks like. Would you say that women in Belgium or women in Iran have most rights?

And about the last part: that is exactly what I said.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Zé Tahir]

Of course I would. We have Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc living in Iran in peace. Of course they are the minority and like many of other countries their rights aren't practically equal to the majority's but they sure aren't obliged to convert to Islam.

Those verses are not only about freedom of religion outside Islam but it applies to Islam itself as well, i.e. no one can force or make you follow anything even as a Muslim. To take an example, Iran forces you to wear the hijab against your wish and disregards whether you are a Muslim or not or whether you're a Muslim but just choose not to wear it.

Unlike what Salman thinks and unlike what you also may assume I'm not anti Islam per se. I'm strictly against Islam/any other religion ruling the society though. If you find Qoran's instructions useful up to this point of time, you should be free to practice them and to have Islam as your religion (no matter if I find it stupid or not). But religions start to corrupt the whole society when they're merged with the government.


You on the other hand know that Muhammad's first real objective was to establish an Islamic society ruling by Qoran's teachings.
Moreover, Qoran's teachings are not aimed at people individually. So, first you tell me do you believe that there should be an Islamic society being governed based on Qoran's instructions or not?

No to the bold and I assume you didn't read my post on the previous page because as I said, no where in the Qur'an does it require that society be ruled by Islamic law. It is entirely up to us to decide.

You may not be anti-Islam but you have to agree that your perspective on it is totally different to that from someone living outside Iran and understandably so.

You wouldn't say NO to this question because if you say so, a striking part of Qoran's guidance and instructions will lose their meanings because they happen to be directed towards "a group of" Muslims. I give you two examples:


...

Don't you need a government, an Islamic government, to execute those orders? You can't be a Muslim as an individual, following Qoran's guidance and then completely ignoring such commands. Can you? Therefor you have to believe in an Islamic government existence. Now tell me, do you believe that some of Qoran's instructions need to be moderated or you're for executing them word for word? If you're for changing some of the instructions, so tell me what's the point of insisting on following something that needs to be changed drastically? Otherwise, tell me do you believe that the examples I'll give you still work in this century:

...

As I said, the Qur'an doesn't specify any one type of government. However, even in the days of the Prophet there were non-Muslims living amongst the Muslims and they were not subject to the same rules. Just as today when you go to court and have to swear in on a book of your choosing (be it the Bible, Torah, Qur'an, take an oath or make an affirmation) you were judged according to the rules of your religion.

Btw, you gave a verse from the Qur'an regarding the punishment of theft. I hope you realize it's not as simple as that; there are preconditions that need to met in order for that rule to apply. For instance, if a man steals because he's too poor to feed himself than cutting his hand off would be wrong. Because if the government did it's job, which is to: "fulfill the basic needs of man: that is to say, provide him food, clothing and shelter " then the man wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. Lastly, all preconditions met...cutting off the hand is only allowed on the third time that person commits that crime.

Tahir, I just want to know your side on this matter. If I interpret Qoran as a collection of instructions which was descended upon the Arab of almost 1500 years ago, I'd say I have nothing towards it but sheer respect. In a society where the men used to bury their daughters alive, a man kissed her daughter when she was born. The man was
Muhammad. Qoran soberly criticizes the men who were killing their daughters:

وَإِذَا الْمَوْؤُودَةُ سُئِلَتْ [And when the girl child that was buried alive is asked], بِأَيِّ ذَنبٍ قُتِلَتْ [For what sin she was slain].

I don't expect Qoran to put all men and women in an equal spot in such a severely macho society at the very first place. In a society where women had absolutely no rights, Qoran ordered Muslims to take their daughters into account as well as their sons when they were about to bequeath their properties. Oh and all these happened in 1500 yrs ago. It's ironic that only in 1979, the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women was adopted by the United Nations, isn't it Seven?

In such a racist society of barbarian Arabs, a man came and chose Bilal al-Habeshi, a black Ethiopian slave, as the first muezzin of the Islamic faith and yes the man was Muhammad. It's ironic that less than 200 years have passed since Emancipation Proclamation, isn't it Seven?

Having said this all, I do believe that the Islamic instructions rationally need to be updated/modified. They once were useful to people but they have no impact on the mankind of this century anymore. What do we have in Islamic societies now Tahir? Poverty, lack of knowledge, ignorance, superstitions, stupidity and a bunch of people sticking to their grand grand grand parents' beliefs, reluctant to think about them or use their brains, waiting for a miracle or even worse, waiting for death to deliver them from this hell to the promised heaven. Unfortunately they are sticking to the most trivial parts of Qoran while totally ignoring the umpteen verses in which they've been asked to think:

لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ [that you may give thought], أَفَلاَ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ [Will you not then take thought?], ...


Putting all those mindless people aside, you see a bunch of extremists in Muslim countries who are outrageously brainwashed by some radicals. I'm not going to put the blame on those radicals though who are only benefiting from the stupidity of people. Religions, unfortunately, have got the potential to be the most lethal phenomenon.

You kinda confused me with which part you're directing at me and which at Seven but to answer your first question: No, Islam was meant for the whole of mankind not just the Arabs. The reason why it was revealed in the Arab world was because at the time it was the most backward place in the world. Also, I believe I've stated the reasons for the backwardness in the Muslim world today numerously so I have nothing more to add to that.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

what's the reason it was only revealed to one guy? who then used to get the power

 

[Seven]

You kinda confused me with which part you're directing at me and which at Seven but to answer your first question: No, Islam was meant for the whole of mankind not just the Arabs. The reason why it was revealed in the Arab world was because at the time it was the most backward place in the world. Also, I believe I've stated the reasons for the backwardness in the Muslim world today numerously so I have nothing more to add to that.

So basically you're expecting a new, improved version of Islam soon now?

 

[Alen]

The reason why it was revealed in the Arab world was because at the time it was the most backward place in the world.

Cannibalism was still in full effect in 70% of todays Australia and Oceania up until the early 20th century. You can imagine how backward they were in the 7th century.

 

[Enron]

Cannibalism was still in full effect in 70% of todays Australia and Oceania up until the early 20th century. You can imagine how backward they were in the 7th century.

Some interior Indians of South America were cannibals as well, but considering the isolation they lived in some would say they weren't backwards. The same goes for many of the cannibalistic tribes of Oceania and the South Pacific, even in the 20th century they were isolated from the majority of the world.

If you're a cannibal and you know no other way of life does that make you backwards?

 

[Alen]

If you're a cannibal and you know no other way of life does that make you backwards?

If you're the one who knows everything and can see everything then you'll know that they're backwards to the Arabs. It won't matter to you that they were isolated.

 

[Enron]

If you're the one who knows everything and can see everything then you'll know that they're backwards to the Arabs. It won't matter to you that they were isolated.

So they become backwards once they come in contact or are viewed by the rest of the world?

 

[Alen]

So they become backwards once they come in contact or are viewed by the rest of the world?

Viewed by God is what i mean.

Tahir said that the reason Islam was revealed in the Arab world was because at the time it was the most backward place in the world. Who judged that it was the most backward place in the world and how did he conclude that?

 

[king Ale]

With all respect, but I don't know what point you are trying to make. The UN is an organisation of nations. So you can't really point at the UN if you want to show the merits of Islam or the problems of the West.

And even if it would in fact be some sort of an argument, I ask myself the question of what today's reality looks like. Would you say that women in Belgium or women in Iran have most rights?

No I don't want to show the merits of Islam or the problems of the West. Iran is a Muslim country, still women barely have their initial rights here. You know why? Because we're still referring to the rules of Qoran which although were useful and seemed to be very very fair towards the women back then, fail to fulfill the rights of today's women.

Islam brought the ancient Arab somethings (equality between the races and sexes) which were brought to the West in the recent 200 years. The interesting part though is that Islam is not able to gift these rights to the Muslim countries of today because the rules hadn't been customized to the needs of the modern societies.

A woman of the barbarian Arab wasn't considered as a human. Islam gave her the right to live, the right to benefit from everything a man could benefit in the society. The women were still the second sex in those days but comparing to their condition of pre-Islam era, they relatively felt themselves equal to men. Now the Islamic societies are still using those old rules and instructions of Qoran which now are functioning in the exact opposite direction. The rules which one day were freeing the women are enslaving them now. One fucking thousand and five frigging hundreds years have passed, people, their habits, their priorities, their needs and necessities have changed but the rules are still the same with 1500 years ago.

 

[Enron]

Viewed by God is what i mean.

Tahir said that the reason Islam was revealed in the Arab world was because at the time it was the most backward place in the world. Who judged that it was the most backward place in the world and how did he conclude that?

Oh ok. That kind begs the time old question of "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to see it or hear, then did the tree really fall?".

So basically the Arab world wasn't backwards until God told Muhammed "You guys are backward, here's some stuff you make you not backward"?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

how frail is this "today" you speak of, i have no doubt in my mind civilization as we know it will crumble in the next 50 years

 

[Seven]

No I don't want to show the merits of Islam or the problems of the West. Iran is a Muslim country, still women barely have their initial rights here. You know why? Because we're still referring to the rules of Qoran which although were useful and seemed to be very very fair towards the women back then, fail to fulfill the rights of today's women.

Islam brought the ancient Arab somethings (equality between the races and sexes) which were brought to the West in the recent 200 years. The interesting part though is that Islam is not able to gift these rights to the Muslim countries of today because the rules hadn't been customized to the needs of the modern societies.

A woman of the barbarian Arab wasn't considered as a human. Islam gave her the right to live, the right to benefit from everything a man could benefit in the society. The women were still the second sex in those days but comparing to their condition of pre-Islam era, they relatively felt themselves equal to men. Now the Islamic societies are still using those old rules and instructions of Qoran which now are functioning in the exact opposite direction. The rules which one day were freeing the women are enslaving them now. One fucking thousand and five frigging hundreds years have passed, people, their habits, their priorities, their needs and necessities have changed but the rules are still the same with 1500 years ago.

I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood .

That is exactly the problem I have with Islam. I don't even want to give examples, because TBH it's all so damn obvious.

 

[Seven]

how frail is this "today" you speak of, i have no doubt in my mind civilization as we know it will crumble in the next 50 years

In a way it always crumbles. Still, despite the fact that a lot of people might dispute it, history actually is linear. There's always some sort of progress.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

no, i mean CRUMBLE

 

[Seven]

no, i mean CRUMBLE

How so?

 

[Enron]

Like a cracka'!

 

[GordoDeCentral]

aaron, you complete me

 

[Zé Tahir]

Cannibalism was still in full effect in 70% of todays Australia and Oceania up until the early 20th century. You can imagine how backward they were in the 7th century.

And I'm sure there was a prophet sent among them. There have been over 100,000 prophets.

So basically you're expecting a new, improved version of Islam soon now?

No. Which is why it's sad...not just for Arabs but the rest of the world alike. This world is a cruel cruel place and those that run it could care less.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

It is because I'm not religious and talk a lot.

Gorillas talk a lot.

Right?

Since when are Gorillas atheists? I want proofs!

Okay, I started reading this from the beginning and got to page 5 before I realized it would take me 5 hours to get 25 pages in.

So what is relevant now?