Terrorism (412 Viewers)

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mikhail

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2003
9,576
++ [ originally posted by Sergio ] ++
... it wasn't Pado who made that post. The least you can do is get your American members right :D
:oops: Sorry Serge.

++ [ originally posted by Padovano ] ++
NOT MY QUOTE SCHOOL BOY. I have no idea what you are on about. If you are going to quote, you should not delete the poster's name. And that, school boy, is my two-cents worth.
Pado, I was splitting a post into multiple parts so I could answer each one seperately. Don't call me school-boy.
 

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Elnur_E65

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2004
10,848
An interesting article in New York times today, related to what we've been talking about.

Many in Europe See U.S. Vote as a Lose-Lose Affair
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN

Published: October 29, 2004


ERLIN, Oct. 28 - No matter who wins the presidential election next week, the consequences for American-European relations will be bad, according to a deeply pessimistic view taking hold here.

If President Bush wins, the reasoning goes, pro-Kerry Europe will be astonished at what it will see as the bad judgment of the American electorate. Europeans will be confirmed in their sense that they are from Earth and Americans from some other planet.

But if Senator John Kerry wins, the result may well be an almost immediate trans-Atlantic crisis. Mr. Kerry, having presented himself in the campaign as the man who can restore a functioning alliance, will ask Germany and France to come to the aid of the United States in Iraq. Germany and France will refuse, and Americans will feel angry and betrayed.

"If they were to say no to Kerry, the risk of a backlash against Europe in America would be large," said William Drozdiak, the director of the German Marshall Fund's Transatlantic Center. "Americans would say, 'We can't depend on Europe, even though we protected Europe for 50 years.' It will cause lasting damage to the relationship, a great sense of disillusionment."

It is a strangely paradoxical reasoning, but the very fact that it may be accurate has led some foreign policy thinkers in Europe to a new sense of urgency about the world's most important alliance.

The animating idea here is that whoever is elected, the future of the world depends on a continuation of healthy relations between America and Europe and a common appreciation of the bedrock values of their alliance. To effect a reconciliation, the thinking goes, European leaders have to show a willingness to take some political risk, while the United States has to stop seeing the development of Europe as a threat to its interests.

"We should want every country in Europe to have a relationship with the United States as close as ours," the British historian and essayist Timothy Garton Ash writes in his sparkling new book, "Free World."

Britain and France in particular, he writes, need to overcome their narcissism of small differences, nurtured by centuries of rivalry and competition, and join hands in a "consistently Euro-Atlanticist" partnership with the United States that can keep the collective eye on the big picture. The big picture is knowing that only by working together can Europe and the United States achieve the common objective of enhancing democratic values in the parts of the world where they do not yet exist.

It is a good thought, and good advice, but how to overcome the immediate barrier, the difference over Iraq, which is by no stretch of the imagination a small one? There are some good ideas in that area too - some draft compromise formulas, one requirement of which is that neither the American nor the European side expect the other to make all of the important gestures.

In a formula devised by Michael Naumann, the former German culture minister who is now the editor of the weekly newspaper Die Zeit, Europe will come to the aid of the United States in Iraq if the United States can fulfill four conditions:

¶That in the aftermath of Guantánamo and Abu Ghraib, it reaffirms its commitment to the Geneva Convention's rules on the treatment of prisoners.

¶That it recommits itself to nuclear nonproliferation at home, reducing its own weapons stockpiles and not just preventing countries like North Korea and Iran from obtaining them.

¶That it enters into serious ecological discussions, including the Kyoto treaty on global warming, which was rejected by the Bush administration.

¶That there be what Mr. Naumann calls "a return to a less arrogant tone of conversation," meaning that leaders on both sides of the Atlantic need to desist from the demagogic posturing of past months.

This last point presumably means there should be no warnings about "countries like France" from the president of the United States, and no talk of a "multipolar world" - code meaning that American power is a danger and needs to be contained - from the president of France.

In return, France and Germany have to find a way to help the country that saved Europe in two hot wars and one cold one in the last century and that now finds itself militarily and diplomatically isolated in a violent conflict in Iraq.

One way, proposed by Mr. Naumann, would be to get serious about the long-proposed but still mostly unbuilt European military rapid reaction force and to deploy some of its detachments to places like Falluja and Sadr City.

Given the intransigent and politically popular refusals by Germany and France to commit troops to Iraq, it might seem highly unlikely that either country could fulfill that part of the prospective bargain. And yet, in Germany at least, there have been some small signs that exactly such a gesture is being contemplated.

The hint was dropped a few weeks ago by Defense Minister Peter Struck, when he said, essentially, that there is never a never in politics and that under the right circumstances Germany might, after all, send troops to Iraq.

Mr. Struck's comment was immediately disavowed by spokesmen for Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, who affirmed that there was no change in Germany's policy.

Still, sending units of a European rapid reaction force to Iraq would have several benefits. It would give Germany a European cover to change its position, and if Germany changed its position, the pressure on France to do the same would be intense.

It would have the added benefit of getting European leaders to take seriously their own pledge to build an independent European force. And it would demonstrate to Americans that such a force would not be part of some effort to weaken NATO and counterbalance the United States.

Most important, it might help ensure a stable, nonterrorist, possibly even somewhat more democratic Middle East, a place where Europe and America have an urgent immediate interest: to avoid chaos and the sort of political extremism that arises from it.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,488
++ [ originally posted by Elnur_E65 ] ++
Britain and France in particular, he writes, need to overcome their narcissism of small differences, nurtured by centuries of rivalry and competition, and join hands in a "consistently Euro-Atlanticist" partnership with the United States that can keep the collective eye on the big picture.
C'mon! Getting France to agree with anyone is like getting a cat to sit, stay, and rollover. France is most French when they do stuff to be contrarians and annoy everyone else. Tell France that the sky is blue, and they'll plainly tell you that it's really yellow ... just because they're French. :LOL:
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Why is it that anybody who asks questions and/or is critical of our government's foreign policy is branded as "anti-American", or even "unpatriotic" (If American)?

Wasn't our country built by people who dared to ask "why?" and "how can it get better?"

For those of us who are not Amercian and are still asking why, I think they're vioices shouldn't be considered as much (with all due respect), but they still shouldn't be shut out. We are the world's most influential country and we do affect the lives of people around the world in all aspects from entertainment to business to food...you name it.

Why is someone who feels sorry for innocent Iraqi children automatically branded (and not to mention, insulted), by people like you, as disrespectful to 9-11 victims?

Is your world narrow enough that it could only include one set of victims?



1. By all means, If it makes you feel better go ahead. Start that thread. I don't think we have any radical muslim terrorists here. We do have a lot of people critical of the US's actions, but I don't see how these two groups are exactly the same. Then again, this idea of a thread won't get very argumentative since nobody here thinks highly of terrorists. So, you could probibly save Martin some data space and open up MS Word or Notepad and type up your frustrations there.

2. It's really interestig how you pointed out: "trying to get into our country, and destroy our way of living" as being a negative action. Did you ever think that Iraqis and many other countires maybe asking that same question?

3. What many here think of the USA is not what you think about terrorists. The world isn't black and white. People are not either "WITH ME OR AGAISNT ME." That mentality should have ended by the time you reached the age where people weren't catigorized into either "the good guys" or "the evil bad guys/enimies." (Note if you're a bit slow on this: I'm talking about the members here, not terrorists)



It's actually quite comforting that they keep cops and other law enforcement people like yourself paranoid. It keeps you guys on your toes to catch people who really are terrorists. I'm actually greatfull for this short-term job/solution that people like you are doing. I can only imagine the types of things that they feed you though.

It's just a shame that they make honest hardworking people like you who want security in this land so negative, so evil-assuming with a "guilty till proven innocent" mentality on people. You may argue that it's a dirty job and someone has to do it, and i'll mostly agree, but it's a shame that our gov.'s choices are making your job tougher, our fellow citizens unsafer, our Arab/Muslim citizens violated (See Patriot Act), and our country looked down upon all because of our foreign policy.

....

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I do agree that US members here have been taking a lot, but I also understand where it comes from and how it only means that we're very influential and a lot is expected from the USA.

Also, if we were to name the faults of our nations in threads like these, then we'd go on for ever and I don't think anyone's denying this.
I do understand what your saying, I dont deny that you have a valid point.....

I dont really feel were being paranoid, because if you ask any law enforcement officer if he/she thinks we'll be attacked again, they will say "yes"

We'll be attacked much sooner than later if Kerry is elected IMO....

Then today, I see the video of Osama.......someone please murder this bastard ......................
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++


I do understand what your saying, I dont deny that you have a valid point.....

I dont really feel were being paranoid, because if you ask any law enforcement officer if he/she thinks we'll be attacked again, they will say "yes"

We'll be attacked much sooner than later if Kerry is elected IMO....

Then today, I see the video of Osama.......someone please murder this bastard ......................
Unfortunately, I fear an attack too, but I think things are looking good (or at least according to statements by our security officials).

...

I just read BL's words... I have to say that it's annoying because of his ways in acheiving his goals., but interesting to how he thinks.

For you, Andy, and _Emerson, I think his words (If you've read the whole available speech) obviously show that his plan isn't world domination, killing free citizens, hating Americans just for the sake of it, or just having a death wish. He obviously has his reasons (as he expressed), and as tough as it may sound, I think we should acknowledge his reasons and look into them. Again, his methods for achieving those goals are barbaric, but a solution would only come if we get over the barbaric and stupid ways of "fighting terror."



....

About whether our chances of getting attacked again are more likely with Kerry as president, I disagree. It's completely illogical to think that Kerry will put less into national secuirity. The Damage has already been done Vinman. I don't think any of the two will make much of a difference. Maybe Nadar is the better option, but then again, I don't think he's that qualified to help the country economically..etc.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,627
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Unfortunately, I fear an attack too, but I think things are looking good (or at least according to statements by our security officials).

...

I just read BL's words... I have to say that it's annoying because of his ways in acheiving his goals., but interesting to how he thinks.

For you, Andy, and _Emerson, I think his words (If you've read the whole available speech) obviously show that his plan isn't world domination, killing free citizens, hating Americans just for the sake of it, or just having a death wish. He obviously has his reasons (as he expressed), and as tough as it may sound, I think we should acknowledge his reasons and look into them. Again, his methods for achieving those goals are barbaric, but a solution would only come if we get over the barbaric and stupid ways of "fighting terror."

I don't know about you Majed, but I'm not a big fan of complying with terrorist demands. It shows a weakness which only influences such acts.
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++



I don't know about you Majed, but I'm not a big fan of complying with terrorist demands. It shows a weakness which only influences such acts.
Valid point, but is plan A working?

I'd rather APPEAR weak and have a good chance of protecting my people from future attacks, than escalate an already terrible situation.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,627
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Valid point, but is plan A working?

I'd rather APPEAR weak and have a good chance of protecting my people from future attacks, than escalate an already terrible situation.
I rather just find Osama and his followers, hang them out on stakes, and let them sit in the middle of the Sahara desert for the rest of their lives.
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


I rather just find Osama and his followers, hang them out on stakes, and let them sit in the middle of the Sahara desert for the rest of their lives.
That sounds cool to me, but think for a second here. Are we doing anything to prevent more Osamas from popping up?!
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,627
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


That sounds cool to me, but think for a second here. Are we doing anything to prevent more Osamas from popping up?!
Well, unless you can un-brainwash hundreds of thousands of potential terrorists, then no.
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
Burke, with all due respect, I'd appretiate it if you don't reply to any of my posts.

I don't have the best of things to say to you, so I'd rather keep quite. I't won't be fun, and it definately won't be pretty.

I'm sure I'll change my mind whenever you post something intelligent and worth reading (whether I agree with it or not)
 
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