Tactics and Formations (45 Viewers)

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,898
We have many decent central midfielders and underperforming/unfit strikers:

Di Gregorio
Kalulu Gatti Bremer Cambiaso
Mckennie Locatelli Thuram
Koopmeiners
Gonzalez Yildiz
Fixed it. But I like it. The only problem is Chico gives us a different dynamic via his 1v1's, so he might need to play.
 

Tak!

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
4,176
Thinking about replacing Bremer and Motta allegedly talking about Luiz as a CB back in July.

Got me thinking. What about Locatelli as a CB?
I thought before that he could probably extend his career by shifting to a CB. Didn't really think of that for now. I would really like if we could get the Saussolo version of him back to take McKennie's spot. McKennie is playing because he can't stand still and always tries to enter the box. If we could get the old version of Loca back with all his late runs into the box, he would be a superior alternative to McKennie. I thought Loca looked decent when Thuram had the regista role. But I'd rather have Thuram in Loca/McKennie's spot. :D

To make a long comment short, maybe Loca could step back but would he be a better CB than Gatti, Cabal, Danilo or Savona? Unsure if we would solve any problems.
 

DanielSz

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2014
14,343
hahhahahahah right on cue:

Thiago Motta is contemplating moving Manuel Locatelli into central defence. This is also in part due to Nicolò Fagioli and his standout performance against RB Leipzig. If Locatelli moves into #Juventus’ defence, it could carve out a starting role for Fagioli as the regista. (@Gazzetta_it)

Locatelli could play as a centre back until January.

[@tuttosport] #Juventus

———

I don’t actually believe these reports but I’m convinced it could work.
 

DanielSz

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2014
14,343
Locatelli as a libero in between Kalulu and Gatti would be sick. Motta used Freuler there at Bologna, so the idea is not foreign to him. Loca has essentially been playing a bunch of CB early this season anyway the way he drops between defenders. Fagioli should continue to start, and Locatelli would give them something they’ve been missing in the possession phase from their defenders. We already know how good he is defensively, I don’t think he would struggle in that phase. He’s no slower than your standard CB, like he’s more athletic than Bonucci ever was.
 

Scottish

Zebrastreifenpferd
Mar 13, 2011
10,176
Alright here it is. Hope Motta is reading this because I've figured it all out.

In the previous cycle we had a spine of creativity running through the team from the defence to the attack. Their job was to either distribute the ball forward to the CF to hold up or bring in others, or occasionally to spread it wide. We realised how important it was to have this spine and not simply one player after Bayern gave Mandzukic the job of marking Pirlo and nullified our attack.

In 2015 the spine was Bonucci, Pirlo, Vidal and Tevez. In this system we played fairly narrow, and because Pirlo was a defensive liability Lichtsteiner and Evra had to show discipline to not both bomb up at the same time. In any case their presence up front was not really necessary because of the talent we had from the midfield onwards. It could be argued that the spine was less pronounced besides Pirlo and Bonucci because of the contributions not just of Tevez but also of Pogba and Marchisio but at this point Pirlo was very much the pendulum of the whole setup, and Bonucci his fallback when pressed.

1730288532812.png


With the decline of Pirlo we recognised that this spine was the right way to go and we sought as direct a stylistic replacement as possible for Pirlo (an impossible job of course) in Pjanic. In 2017 the spine was Bonucci, Pjanic and Dybala. In this system we somehow landed a Dani Alves who was still a world class player, and an Alex Sandro who was highly motivated. Both of them were able to push up partly because they were too effective not to use, but also because of the presence of Khedira who could cover the defence if needbe. Plus Mario's, Alves' and Alex Sandro's insane combined workrate made this possible.

1730288427457.png


What we should be doing in 2024 is to understand the creative qualities of our players and think of how best to assemble a creative spine as the central structure. It should be understood that this is a work in construction, and our aim this year should be not just to push for a scudetto win and a deep run in the Champions League but to have our tactical setup finalised and ready to conquer next season. This is a work in progress, in other words.

First and foremost we don't have a Bonucci. Bremer and Kalulu as our best CBs aren't a smart bet to rely on for playmaking (though Bremer's passing was looking good before his injury) However what we do have is Locatelli in the regista position (we are playing a 4141 not a 4231, and Locatelli is dropping back to CB to cover the fullbacks pushing up), a Di Gregorio who is supposed to be good with his feet and then a Koopmeiners further up the pitch. This is our best XI on paper as it stands.

1730289207098.png


When attacking we look more like this

1730289130974.png


So then our 2024 spine is Di Gregorio, Locatelli and Koopmeiners. Essentially Locatelli filling the Pirlo position and Di Gregorio his Bonucci. Koopmeiners then becomes like a Vidal with less running to do or a Tevez with less scoring to do. We have some pieces that are different to both previous iterations of this idea and their roles will become better defined over time. The other CM is a runner in a similar role to Khedira who will be there to be available to receive possession, open passing lanes and relieve pressure. I believe Thuram is better equipped for this than Fagioli. Luiz should be the guy so let's hope he can get himself together.

The question of Yildiz is one which I think will be best answered with a specialised role something like the one Mandzukic had. We will end up being lopsided, I think. He will probably gain more space as FC7 becomes more of a focus for teams to defend against and Koopmeiners finds his proper stride. Importantly FC7's ability to carve through defences solves a huge problem which has been how to get the most out of Vlahovic. If Yildiz and Koopmeiners can start to add more and more goals this also takes more pressure off Dusan which we have seen blunts his impact in a major way.

Finally our fullbacks are not on par with 2015 or 2017, not even close. Cambiaso looks like his will develop into a really solid player. A more technical Gary Neville. Savona is a player I think has a lot of room for growth and I hope we can facilitate that. Otherwise we will need a new fullback to replace him.

If this XI develops around this tactical idea and develop a good rhythm I believe we already have most of the pieces we'll need to get back to the big table. We have the talent and we have a coach who has brought the correct attitude. All we need is time and development at this stage I believe.
 
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Sadomin

Senior Member
Apr 5, 2005
7,327
I miss the pragmatic Juve. 3-4-3 Gasperini/Mazzari/Conte style:

Kalulu - Gatti - Cabal/Savona
McKennie - Koopmeiners - Whoever - Cambiaso
Conceicao - Vlahovic - Yildiz

Gonzalez or Weah for Vlahovic of the latter stays in this form.
 

Salvo

J
Moderator
Dec 17, 2007
62,785
Di Gre

Savona Kalulu Gatti Cambiaso

------Thuram-Locatelli-Koop------

Conceicao---Vlahovic---Yildiz


Go back to basics

Allow Conceicao to stay further up with a more defensive fullback behind him, get Yildiz closer to Vlahovic with Cambiaso overlapping on that side and Koop giving a bit of width as well seeing as he likes to drift there anyway. Thuram playing box to box and Loca playing that anchor role. Allow Yildiz to drift between central and left with Koop or Cambiaso interchanging offering width there.
 

Scottish

Zebrastreifenpferd
Mar 13, 2011
10,176
Time for another banger, children.

I believe that the attributes of our current squad align with a dynamic, lopsided 433/442/451/352. Something a bit like what we had in Cardiff. We're nowhere near as good, but this may be the way to get the most out of everybody. Let me cook for a second.

1736586378183.png

1736588052463.png

1736588209510.png


The basic idea is that we need fluidity and workrate to make this work. Weah has the legs to cover an entire flank the way Dani Alves did (before the brain trust kick off once again I am aware of the huge quality gap). Savona thinking more like a CB means he will defend more (which he's better at) and Connie can focus more on attacking and dribbling.

Speaking of which...in this setup Vlahovic and Yildiz will be able to form that partnership we saw glimpses of early in the season. Yildiz is far more effective when playing centrally and Dusan looked way better having somebody to play off of. Those three make a sort of unorthodox trident. The thing we're missing is an additional threat at the back post a-la Mandzukic. McKennie would do better at that but we've seen enough of him as a LWB I think.

I'm sure I don't know but this seems more like a setup in which Koopmeiners could succeed. Thuram is the B2B doing a lot of legwork and in the quick changeovers between defence and attack there's a use for his dribbling as well. Locatelli's role is similar to what we've seen this season. His defensive abilities allow Savona or Kalulu to push forward if required and his passing can start counters as well as giving us a last option to pass back to when we are set up in the opposition half.

At the back...without Bremer we look slight whichever way we line up but if we get somebody new this winter plus Bremer coming back next year it will only get stronger.

Greggs in goal, Perin in goal who gives a shit?
 

Salvo

J
Moderator
Dec 17, 2007
62,785
Where does this leave us?

We need to stop fucking around and change who we play where

Vlahovic

Nico Yildiz Chico

Thuram Loca


Or

Vlahovic

Mbangula Nico Yildiz

Thuram Loca
/
Luiz Koop


Or if we must play Koop


----------Yildiz - Vlahovic ---- Chico-


---Koop
--------------Loca------Thuram-

Cambiaso Gatti Kalulu Savo/Mckennie


With the last one, if Koop is going to drift wide anyway, have Yildiz play next to Vlahovic or at least closer to him and exploit any space he finds. He has a free role. Chico has a bit more freedom as well but will stick more to the right.


If you want to really push nymbers forward you have Loca who drops back a bit like he has been and Kalulu pushing right with Mckennie pushing forward as wing back.

But realistically nothing changes as long as Motta doesn't want to take risks. We must speed up our play and actually look to play centrally. Where we can put pressure on the opponents. It's no coincidence we don't win dangerous free kicks ever. It's too slow and too wide.


We need Yildiz and Chico or whoever is playing there to have freedom to try and exploit space and one on ones. We also need our mids to drive centrally and get into the box. It's all too slow and safe right now. Especially against teams that sit back. You have to risk getting numbers high up the pitch. You must create confusion for them, not just stand in position and hope someone does something.
 

Tak!

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
4,176
The system isn't that far from several suggestions, it is the implementation and mentality that is missing. In the implementation the players need to adapt to more fluid roles, they need to roam more to find open pockets and switch positions to create the pockets. They need to press higher whilst pushing our backline higher. Loca needs to learn the libero role better and study Rodri's movements in different phases. Mentality is another matter and to accept taking risks.
I don't think there is a solution to be found in a particular formation, if so it will be around the shared responsibilities in terms of functions. Koop should start from further down. I'd rather see him move forward than drop back (since he is not a trequartista-type of a player).
Finally, we need to train on how to unlock the final third. Get it ingrained different types of collective movements to open particular spaces, these movements should they be able to make while sleepwalking. Move the ball around much quicker but I am happy to see Loca switching sides a lot better than in the past. His passing game was poor in his last outing but before than his distribution was very encouraging.
 

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