Tactics and Formations (56 Viewers)

[MikeM]

Yup.

I mostly agree. What i think is that even when we field dybala and higuain and look offensive on paper.... Our gameplan cannot be more defensive. Like you said, bland 442, throw it to the sides and hope for a cuadrado/douglas magic, then hope higuain or dybala convert somehow.

Thats not an offensive gameplan, like you said it just is spray and pray, and make dybala and higuain run until they get gassed while you are at it.

But hopefully this will change in the new season, as we are obliged to give service to ronaldo, and not make him a martyr like higuain.

The issue is that Dybala has to service Ronaldo. You can't play 2 strikers, absolve them of defensive duties and also absolve them of creating the attack.

You can't ask Cuadrado and Costa to play in a midfield 4, ALWAYS protect the fullbacks and ALWAYS create the attack. I was actually shocked last year that Costa was able to do it. Insane.

Most likely we will start with a 4-4-2 and Ronaldo on the last man. That will leave insane space for Dybala and again he will be the focal point in attack. If he can't operate as a #10 then we are fucked. We have to find a way to service Dybala with the midfield 4 that is already killing themselves to cover the ground that usually 5 players cover?

Unless one side of the 4-4-2 is literally Costa and Marcelo, then it's different. Our quality simply becomes overwhelming for the other team.

 

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[il brutto]

Plenty of teams play defensively with two strikers including us when we need to. It's not unusual to see us have all our players below the ball. That's hardly freeing Dybala and Higuain from any defensive duties. The whole narrative that playing two strikers automatically makes you an attacking team is simplistic and just wrong.

 

[MikeM]

Plenty of teams play defensively with two strikers including us when we need to. It's not unusual to see us have all our players below the ball. That's hardly freeing Dybala and Higuain from any defensive duties. The whole narrative that playing two strikers automatically makes you an attacking team is simplistic and just wrong.

Can't think of many other successful teams besides Atletico but comparing their strikers' work rate to Dybala/Higuain is laughable.

I can't even think of many big teams who didn't have Ronaldo/Messi and still played 2 strikers, period. Let alone teams that set out to defend with 2 strikers. For example Chelsea/Man U style of defence first? One striker. Even Hazard plays more in the AM slot and runs around in midfield which is why he wants to leave

Maybe Leicester City from 3 years ago?

It's not really the strikers defending that hurts you, it's 2 CMs instead of 3 in front of the CBs. If one is pulled away, you're completely open. One of the CMs is Pjanic? Forget it man. Come on. He doesn't have these characteristics, it's super high risk. You need two Matuidis.

Look at Atletico with Saul, Koke, Gabi. These are opposite players of Pjanic doing the job.

 

[Hydde]

The issue is that Dybala has to service Ronaldo. You can't play 2 strikers, absolve them of defensive duties and also absolve them of creating the attack.

You can't ask Cuadrado and Costa to play in a midfield 4, ALWAYS protect the fullbacks and ALWAYS create the attack. I was actually shocked last year that Costa was able to do it. Insane.

Most likely we will start with a 4-4-2 and Ronaldo on the last man. That will leave insane space for Dybala and again he will be the focal point in attack. If he can't operate as a #10 then we are $#@!ed. We have to find a way to service Dybala with the midfield 4 that is already killing themselves to cover the ground that usually 5 players cover?

Unless one side of the 4-4-2 is literally Costa and Marcelo, then it's different. Our quality simply becomes overwhelming for the other team.

I would sincerely stay away from a 2 man midfield. Because no matter what, we WILL field Pjanic, which is fine as a builder.. but he simply is not good as a DM, and we do not have a Vidal on the team to pair him with, and who can clean everything on sight to let Pjanic work peacefully.

IMO the one sacrificed should be Dybalaa. He must learn to play as a free role RW who will roam around ronaldo and trying shots with his left when having the space....while letting douglas play as a true winger on the left side.

The midfield should be composed of Pjanic, Can (who will hopefully deliver and replace Khedira)....and someone else....be it Matuidi or anyone who can put a lot of physical work and pass a ball.

We do that and we are set IMO.

 

[Juve FC]

Can't think of many other successful teams besides Atletico but comparing their strikers' work rate to Dybala/Higuain is laughable.

I can't even think of many big teams who didn't have Ronaldo/Messi and still played 2 strikers, period. Let alone teams that set out to defend with 2 strikers. For example Chelsea/Man U style of defence first? One striker. Even Hazard plays more in the AM slot and runs around in midfield which is why he wants to leave

Maybe Leicester City from 3 years ago?

It's not really the strikers defending that hurts you, it's 2 CMs instead of 3 in front of the CBs. If one is pulled away, you're completely open. One of the CMs is Pjanic? Forget it man. Come on. He doesn't have these characteristics, it's super high risk. You need two Matuidis.

Look at Atletico with Saul, Koke, Gabi. These are opposite players of Pjanic doing the job.

The difference between a team who can play defensively and field two strikers vs one who tries but doesn't succeed is all based on how the midfield is built. Guys you mentioned like Saul, Koke, Gabi have pace and are pretty much b2b midfielders. We were fielding molasses out there last year.

 

[il brutto]

Can't think of many other successful teams besides Atletico but comparing their strikers' work rate to Dybala/Higuain is laughable.

I can't even think of many big teams who didn't have Ronaldo/Messi and still played 2 strikers, period. Let alone teams that set out to defend with 2 strikers. For example Chelsea/Man U style of defence first? One striker. Even Hazard plays more in the AM slot and runs around in midfield which is why he wants to leave

Maybe Leicester City from 3 years ago?

It's not really the strikers defending that hurts you, it's 2 CMs instead of 3 in front of the CBs. If one is pulled away, you're completely open. One of the CMs is Pjanic? Forget it man. Come on. He doesn't have these characteristics, it's super high risk. You need two Matuidis.

Look at Atletico with Saul, Koke, Gabi. These are opposite players of Pjanic doing the job.

Yeah but as you said leaving formations aside quite a few teams leave two players up front when defending some leave even more. When we defend we leave none or at max one.

Overall I think our problems at the back were quite often results of not taking good enough care of the ball in some dangerous positions. I'm quite certain we will improve on that next season.

 

[MikeM]

The difference between a team who can play defensively and field two strikers vs one who tries but doesn't succeed is all based on how the midfield is built. Guys you mentioned like Saul, Koke, Gabi have pace and are pretty much b2b midfielders. We were fielding molasses out there last year.

I agree with that. I don't see how you can play Dybala/Higuain and also Pjanic as a B2B CM and call our team defensive though. It's a very, very risky formation. I don't know how this wasn't completely evident when we had 20 metres between the lines against Spurs. We covered nothing. Completely open.

 

[Hydde]

Yup. I dont know why allegri insisted on that to be honest. We had zero presence on midfield, and were wasting a great player like pjanic.

I hope all of that magically gets fixed with emre can. If not ill be a sad panda

 

[Papi-a]

Basically played end to end vs Spurs and Madrid and people think we are defensive still

Do you really Think we played offensive Against spurs?

Against madrid we were trailing after 2 minutes. The minute we made it 3-0 in Madrid we didnt have have one single attack.

I im not saying we all defensive, but compared to many other big clubs i would call our approach defensive.

 

[Hydde]

Do you really Think we played offensive Against spurs?

Against madrid we were trailing after 2 minutes. The minute we made it 3-0 in Madrid we didnt have have one single attack.

I im not saying we all defensive, but compared to many other big clubs i would call our approach defensive.

Of course it is defensive, mainly because we simply CANT play offensive football, when you simply do not have possesion or accurate passing. This forces us to press press and press some more and ultimately get tired. Thats why i cant stress more about getting technical physical players on mid, who can keep our team ticking.

 

[Papi-a]

I agree.

My only question is : Do you guys Think we Will try to adapt a new style?

- - - Updated - - -

I agree.

My only question is : Do you guys Think we Will try to adapt a new style?

 

[Catenaccio]

Allegri being allegri will almost certainly have Mandzukic starting. My guess is one of Dybala or Costa will be in the bench

 

[Xperd]

He's just going to rotate heavily like last season

You can't have Ronaldo and Mandzukic playing all games

 

[Catenaccio]

He's just going to rotate heavily like last season

You can't have Ronaldo and Mandzukic playing all games

Oh I agree. But my guess is for the big games that will be his first choice.

 

[MikeM]

Do you really Think we played offensive Against spurs?

Against madrid we were trailing after 2 minutes. The minute we made it 3-0 in Madrid we didnt have have one single attack.

I im not saying we all defensive, but compared to many other big clubs i would call our approach defensive.

If Allegri wanted to play defensive he would drop a striker and play 4-5-1 like he did 2nd half vs. Napoli! That is defensive bunkering. Textbook.

The amount of space between our CBs and the midfield vs Spurs was outrageous. Never before have I seen that even back in the Del Neri days. There was nothing defensive about it, we simply could not get the ball from their midfield so we were constantly chasing. They had play in dangerous areas quite a bit.

Again, there is defensive play because that is your intention and defensive play because you simply cannot get the ball.

Allegri could play 3-4-3 and we wouldn't be able to get the ball and we'd get overrun and we'd be "defensive". Yes, defensive because we are never in possession of the ball.

Any time Allegri had the intention to defend like when he got sweaty palms vs. Napoli, he made it clear and put 5 in midfield.

 

[dyl1dyl]

Yup. I dont know why allegri insisted on that to be honest. We had zero presence on midfield, and were wasting a great player like pjanic.

I hope all of that magically gets fixed with emre can. If not ill be a sad panda

yeah, ill honestly be irritated if our midfield still sucks this season and it causes us to waste our great attack and defence. though hopefully if it really sucks in the first half, we'll make a big buy in Jan to push for the UCL

 

[Akshen]

The main reason for Mandzu to play so much is that we aimed all the long balls to him, as he was the only player in our attack who could win the header. With high pressing teams it was sometimes the only way for us to leave our half.
With Ronaldo I expect we will aim the long balls to him. In my opinion Mandzu will rotate CF spot with Dybala, but keeping in mind that in reality they wont be standard CFs - same as in Real Ronaldo will start from LW but will drift to CF forcing Dybala/Mandzu on the wing. Im not sure how this will work with Dybala, but I can see it working great with Mandzu.

I also dont believe we will play 4231 - our main formation will be imo 433.

 

[Cirillo]

The main reason for Mandzu to play so much is that we aimed all the long balls to him, as he was the only player in our attack who could win the header. With high pressing teams it was sometimes the only way for us to leave our half.
With Ronaldo I expect we will aim the long balls to him. In my opinion Mandzu will rotate CF spot with Dybala, but keeping in mind that in reality they wont be standard CFs - same as in Real Ronaldo will start from LW but will drift to CF forcing Dybala/Mandzu on the wing. Im not sure how this will work with Dybala, but I can see it working great with Mandzu.

I also dont believe we will play 4231 - our main formation will be imo 433.

spot on! I think we'll see 4-2-3-1 this season but only when we're rotating heavily or in the Coppa. Our main formation will be 4-3-3. I also think we'll see a fair bit of 4-4-2 if the opposition warrants it.

 

[pitbull]

If Allegri wanted to play defensive he would drop a striker and play 4-5-1 like he did 2nd half vs. Napoli! That is defensive bunkering. Textbook.

The amount of space between our CBs and the midfield vs Spurs was outrageous. Never before have I seen that even back in the Del Neri days. There was nothing defensive about it, we simply could not get the ball from their midfield so we were constantly chasing. They had play in dangerous areas quite a bit.

Again, there is defensive play because that is your intention and defensive play because you simply cannot get the ball.

Allegri could play 3-4-3 and we wouldn't be able to get the ball and we'd get overrun and we'd be "defensive". Yes, defensive because we are never in possession of the ball.

Any time Allegri had the intention to defend like when he got sweaty palms vs. Napoli, he made it clear and put 5 in midfield.

Overall I'd agree, I just don't think Allegri ever intended for Juves mid to be able to regularly get the ball from their midfield, it's obvious that theirs was more physical, we just couldn't keep the ball long enough when we had it.

As Allegri said before the game, we needed to play a technical game of great quality and keep the ball well to win it and we obviously couldn't do that apart from 2nd leg when our more experienced fullbacks steadied the ship.

 

[Juve FC]

Would love to sell Higuain and pick up SMS

costa - ronaldo - dybala
sms - can
pjanic
sandro/new guy - chiellini - caldara - cancelo
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