Tactics and Formations (27 Viewers)

[Joe]

Maybe Giovinco didn't get his chance, because he wasn't good enough [back then]. Ever thought of that?

In the end talent won't be denied and it's Giovinco's time to prove himself.

Or maybe because under the reigns of Ranieri and co. he was deployed as a LM in a 4-4-2.

What the fuck is that...Giovinco wasn't given fair chances and when he went to Parma he banged in 6 goals and 7 assists, and just last year he exploded with 16 goals and 11 assists and that's because he was used in his correct position.

Giovinco in an advanced position whether it be central or a flank will do very well.

 

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[Red]

What are you basing the flank thing on?

His good performances and stats for this season came from playing as a SS.

 

[I am John]

He operated in the left flank most of the time no? He was very much in Vucinic's position regardless how the position is called.

 

[Red]

But floating around in that area occasionally is different to actually having the responsibility of playing there and having to defend and keep the shape of the team.

Would you consider Cassano capable of doing well playing LW?

He starts SS and likes to drift to the left, too.

 

[Red]

I'm seeing a lot of people proposing that 3-5-2 will be Juve's primary formation next season.

I'd suggest that may not be a good idea, particularly for the CL.

In Italy you can play 3-5-2 quite comfortably because the vast majority of team play 3-5-2 or 4-3-1-2, meaning that you are not in danger of being overloaded on the flanks as it is basically just one-on-one on both sides.

Those formations are nothing like as widely used by non-Italian teams.

If Juve come up against a team playing 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 they are going to come up against a problem because they are have two wide players on each side, in theory.

Do you stick with 3-5-2 and the strength in offers in central areas and hope it allows you to dominated the game enough that your being outnumbered in wide areas won't be too big an issue or do you change your shape to avoid being outnumbered out wide?

I'd suggest that when playing lesser sides Juve can play the 3-5-2 and impose themselves on the game.

However, when coming up against a good team (say Juve played Bayern), I think Juve would need to change shape as they would be likely to be completely dominated in wide areas due to how good Bayern are on the flanks and Bayern's midfield is good enough that Juve could not be confident of being dominant to prevent Bayern getting the ball wide.

It's sort of weird, because that would end up being the opposite of what has tended to happen in Serie A games, where 4-3-3 has tended to look best against weaker opposition while 3-5-2 has looked really solid in games against tougher opponents.

 

[Salvo]

Napoli used it well against a team like Chelsea who are very narrow and at the time very static. It is good that we have 2 essentially main formations.

 

[robbotis]

No, You've gotta roll w/ the 3-5-2.
When your 3 in back are Chiellini-Barzagli-Bonucci w/ Lucio and Caceres as reserves, your fine. Plus Lichtsteiner-De Ceglie-Isla-Pepe are best used out wide, and play hard enough to get back when needed.

 

[jukazem]

I'm seeing a lot of people proposing that 3-5-2 will be Juve's primary formation next season.

I'd suggest that may not be a good idea, particularly for the CL.

In Italy you can play 3-5-2 quite comfortably because the vast majority of team play 3-5-2 or 4-3-1-2, meaning that you are not in danger of being overloaded on the flanks as it is basically just one-on-one on both sides.

Those formations are nothing like as widely used by non-Italian teams.

If Juve come up against a team playing 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 they are going to come up against a problem because they are have two wide players on each side, in theory.

Do you stick with 3-5-2 and the strength in offers in central areas and hope it allows you to dominated the game enough that your being outnumbered in wide areas won't be too big an issue or do you change your shape to avoid being outnumbered out wide?

I'd suggest that when playing lesser sides Juve can play the 3-5-2 and impose themselves on the game.

However, when coming up against a good team (say Juve played Bayern), I think Juve would need to change shape as they would be likely to be completely dominated in wide areas due to how good Bayern are on the flanks and Bayern's midfield is good enough that Juve could not be confident of being dominant to prevent Bayern getting the ball wide.

It's sort of weird, because that would end up being the opposite of what has tended to happen in Serie A games, where 4-3-3 has tended to look best against weaker opposition while 3-5-2 has looked really solid in games against tougher opponents.

I don't agree. Vidal, Barzagli, Chiellini and Marchisio all cover the flanks well enough. I don't think we would be double teamed against a winger and full-back attacking. 4-3-3 would be too defensive imo as it would mean both the wingers would have to defend leaving just one player up front, whereas 3-5-2 would at most have one of the strikers track as far as the regista comes forward, which isn't too bad imo. Also I don't think 4 defenders can't cover the whole back-line against teams with midfielders running in the box, 5 is better than 4, which 6 defenders like when Chelsea played their wingers as fullbacks is too much.
I am all for 4-3-3 when breaking down opponents and 3-5-2 against strong teams.

 

[Red]

So what do you do when playing 3-5-2 against a team who plays with wingers and attacking fullbacks?

Say Juve play Bayern:

Buffon

Barzagli-Bonucci-Chiellini

Isla-Vidal-Pirlo-Marchisio-De Ceglie

Matri-Vucinic​

versus

Gomez

Ribery--Muller--Ribery

Schweinsteiger-Gustavo

Alaba-Badstuber-Boateng-Lahm

Neuer​

If Ribery and Robben are high up, Isla and De Ceglie are likey to play them, rather than a CB stepping out of position that early.

Then Alaba and Lahm start to join in th attack. Who is going to confront them? Does a striker try to track? Does a midfielder go wide? Does De Ceglie step forward to meet Lahm and look for Chiellini to pick up Robben?

It's not a question I can answer. Being overloaded on the flanks is the key defensive weakness of 3-5-2.

And when Juve try to attack, should Isla and De Ceglie go beyond Ribery and Robben and leave the team exposed to a counter attack? Do they stay goal-side and leave Juve basically playing and back five and offering no width in attack?

These are big problems for 3-5-2 when playing against teams who play with wingers.

There are very few wingers in Serie A, so 3-5-2 is fine.

Does it no occur to people why almost no-one outside of Italy plays 3-5-2 just now? It's because so many teams are playing 4-2-3-1 type systems, with wingers of some sort, so the problems I have mentioned for 3-5-2 would have to be dealt with by a team playing 3-5-2 every week.

 

[A_LAcki]

Pretty weak argument. Italy played Germany, who play with fullbacks and wingers, with fullbacks in Defense together with a 3 man midfield. Even if Italy played 4-3-1-2, the difference to a 3-5-2 is the extra man in defense, the rest is pretty much the same, so I wouldn't say that a 3-5-2 wouldn't work against a team with attacking fullbacks!

 

[Hydde]

Or maybe because under the reigns of Ranieri and co. he was deployed as a LM in a 4-4-2.

What the $#@! is that...Giovinco wasn't given fair chances and when he went to Parma he banged in 6 goals and 7 assists, and just last year he exploded with 16 goals and 11 assists and that's because he was used in his correct position.

Giovinco in an advanced position whether it be central or a flank will do very well.

This.

People just shields under the "he didnt played because he was not good enough" quote, but totally ignore the amount of trash we had in those years, the crappy formation and players, and on top of that, coaches that didnt had the preparation and resources to make a team competent. In those times, they only thought about not losing and fielding as many defensive brainless players as possible just to evade defeat, and consequently, bashing.

Gio was not good for those imbalanced formations because the team would be pretty exposed so he was not used.... but it was definitely NOT because of his lack of quality.

And about the nationale, he was naturally not used because Prandelli opted for the more logical cassano, balo combo as otherwise he would be eaten alive if he risked it with gio, even if he was an interesting option. ALso, Balotelli and cassano looked ok, so why to change the system?. About DI natale, i dont know why he kept playing him when subbing cassano instead of giving a chance to gio.

ALso, for your information, in both of the games he came in the euro as a sub, the team was already out of gas and defending, Pirlo was not even getting the ball.....just for your information. So be straight with ur facts peeps.

 

[Red]

Pretty weak argument. Italy played Germany, who play with fullbacks and wingers, with fullbacks in Defense together with a 3 man midfield. Even if Italy played 4-3-1-2, the difference to a 3-5-2 is the extra man in defense, the rest is pretty much the same, so I wouldn't say that a 3-5-2 wouldn't work against a team with attacking fullbacks!

4-3-1-2 increases your chances of dominating the midfield.

Also, because you have four in midfield, it is clear that one of them need to drift wide and help cover the flank. With only three in midfield it is less clear how to do that.

And Germany fucked up badly in that game.

They didn't play with two wingers like they normally do. Podolski played wide on the left, but no-one really played wide on the right, with Oezil and Kroos both staying in more central areas.

 

[deggen10]

If we don't get a big name CF, I'm hoping Vucinic can take the No.9 role (a more technical version) and then have Jovetic/Giovinco playing off him in the big games. Use Matri/Pazzini and Quags for the smaller teams.

 

[A_LAcki]

4-3-1-2 increases your chances of dominating the midfield.

Also, because you have four in midfield, it is clear that one of them need to drift wide and help cover the flank. With only three in midfield it is less clear how to do that.

And Germany $#@!ed up badly in that game.

They didn't play with two wingers like they normally do. Podolski played wide on the left, but no-one really played wide on the right, with Oezil and Kroos both staying in more central areas.

Yeah, I agree, it wasn't a perfekt example, still, I really don't see the problem with a 3-5-2 against a team with attacking wingers. Since Conte likes all of his players to defend, I wouldn't be to concerned.
Eiother way, I think that 3-5-2 will just be our prime system, but since we played a lot of various systems last year to be fully prepared for what ever our opponent wnats to throw at us, I don't see that changing.

 

[Hydde]

If we don't get a big name CF, I'm hoping Vucinic can take the No.9 role (a more technical version) and then have Jovetic/Giovinco playing off him in the big games. Use Matri/Pazzini and Quags for the smaller teams.

Im all for using him as a CF...he got the skills for that, he has physical presence , also is a tall player for headers and got the technical skills to make things work. He has played there before if im not wrong(not in juve).....

My only concern is that last year he was kinda off target sometimes.... but maybe with the service of Giovinco and Jovetic (hoping)... this can change.

 

[Dominic]

Nah, bad idea. Vucinic is at his best creating chances, not finishing them. He has fantasy in his game, but he is no killer.

 

[Bjerknes]

Maybe Giovinco didn't get his chance, because he wasn't good enough [back then]. Ever thought of that?

In the end talent won't be denied and it's Giovinco's time to prove himself.

No, not really, because he was better than the alternatives at the time. It was stubbornness that caused the Giovinco debacle, along with poor management.

They did a good job of stunting his growth if that's what you mean by not being good enough.

 

[Deep C]

They did a good job of stunting his growth if that's what you mean by not being good enough.

YOU MEAN HE COULD'VE ACTUALLY BEEN 1.75 TALL????

 

[I am John]

4-3-1-2 increases your chances of dominating the midfield.

Also, because you have four in midfield, it is clear that one of them need to drift wide and help cover the flank. With only three in midfield it is less clear how to do that.

And Germany fucked up badly in that game.

They didn't play with two wingers like they normally do. Podolski played wide on the left, but no-one really played wide on the right, with Oezil and Kroos both staying in more central areas.

Whats not so clear about the MFs covering the flanks when we're out of possession? Its their responsibility, along with the wingers. And if the opposition wide player goes deeper, either Chiellini or Barza will execute them. I actually think it will do better against teams with fast wingers than the 4-3-3, since the defensive capability of our LWF/RWF is not that good anyway, and we'll end up with effectively 2 players when defending the flank instead of 3.

 

[LowLife]

Are we buying another LB, or we'll be playing Asamoah as LWB for the rest of the season?