Tactics and Formations (24 Viewers)

[MikeM]

The 3-5-2 is possibly a safer formation. I can't say for sure because we haven't seen 4-3-3 or some variation extensively. But for sure our 3-5-2 is extremely tough to break down. This is what Conte likes IMO. He likes the defensive certainty game in and game out knowing we just need a goal, maybe 2 to secure a result.

There is no question, however, that the formation struggles to deal with pressure. I do not like the 2 strikers receiving the ball all game with their back to goal. They can't present effective outlets for our mid and defence like that. The 3-5-2 with a regista puts the focus of our possession back near our goal as opposed to up front because we sacrifice a trequartista for a regista. A team like Barca will have 2 CBs and a DM behind half while we'll have 3 CBs and Pirlo behind half. So you can see where pressure can pin us deep.

I really really favour the idea of dual formations. I think a formation with 4 men at the back is absolutely necessary for Europe. I think the 3-5-2 is proven in Serie A and should be used until it is proven a failure. We have a lot of versatile, intelligent, hard-working players. I don't think 2 formations is too much for them to grasp.

IMO, you can tell when the 3-5-2 will struggle as soon as the game starts based on the opponent. I can tell right away at least. I think Conte needs an alternative and he needs to be able to switch to it faster. You know right away if they're man marking Pirlo and pressing high up the pitch that it will be difficult.

 

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[only-juve]

The 3-5-2 is possibly a safer formation. I can't say for sure because we haven't seen 4-3-3 or some variation extensively. But for sure our 3-5-2 is extremely tough to break down. This is what Conte likes IMO. He likes the defensive certainty game in and game out knowing we just need a goal, maybe 2 to secure a result.

There is no question, however, that the formation struggles to deal with pressure. I do not like the 2 strikers receiving the ball all game with their back to goal. They can't present effective outlets for our mid and defence like that. The 3-5-2 with a regista puts the focus of our possession back near our goal as opposed to up front because we sacrifice a trequartista for a regista. A team like Barca will have 2 CBs and a DM behind half while we'll have 3 CBs and Pirlo behind half. So you can see where pressure can pin us deep.

I really really favour the idea of dual formations. I think a formation with 4 men at the back is absolutely necessary for Europe. I think the 3-5-2 is proven in Serie A and should be used until it is proven a failure. We have a lot of versatile, intelligent, hard-working players. I don't think 2 formations is too much for them to grasp.

IMO, you can tell when the 3-5-2 will struggle as soon as the game starts based on the opponent. I can tell right away at least. I think Conte needs an alternative and he needs to be able to switch to it faster. You know right away if they're man marking Pirlo and pressing high up the pitch that it will be difficult.

 

[edgardavids2608]

Good grief this is hilarious....every team that presses we have problems with. Obviously if we switch to a 4-3-3 the Bayern press would be rendered useless against are superior play. Also we have so many great wingers we could pull iy off. Vucinic is a world class winger as well as isla and.... yeah we have no wingers and the only one we did have is at sunderland. Yeah he was no savior. We really need to calm the 4-3-3 banter as if we are using a formation that didnt deliver 2 scudettos and a quarterfinal appearance. Do remember the barca bayern score the next round when Barca played them with a 4-3-3. But that was probably due to the fact that Barca has a subpar team

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Something that actually matters... do you think we are bringing in a lwb and conte would like Asamoah in the center again? He keeps starting him there but has to move him back every game. interesting to see

 

[LiquidPLP]

It's not just about this game, but whenever we played against "any" team that put pressure on our players plus that play a pacey game we struggle.

Don't know how many people here watched today's game but it was Soo obvious that the moment we switched to the 4-3-3 formation the team managed to create better chances. It was so obvious.

Exactly. I didn't watch the game but I'm glad there are people who see that. In 3-5-2 we're predictable, slow and make mistakes when other team pushes us hard. In 4-3-3 we played faster and created more chances (and wasted more as well). In Serie A we can play with any formation but in Europe we won't win anything with sitting back deep. We're pushed back way too easily in Europe. 3-5-2 worked perfectly vs Chelsea and Celtic but teams like Bayern, Dortmund and Barca would kill us quite easily. We have to play faster and higher up a pitch so we're not left exposed too much if someone makes a mistake (Vidal and Pirlo last night?). We have bench to use those players if we're tired with pressing opponents. We need more players upfront to create more chances and actually play faster/less predictable.

The 3-5-2 is possibly a safer formation. I can't say for sure because we haven't seen 4-3-3 or some variation extensively. But for sure our 3-5-2 is extremely tough to break down. This is what Conte likes IMO. He likes the defensive certainty game in and game out knowing we just need a goal, maybe 2 to secure a result.

There is no question, however, that the formation struggles to deal with pressure. I do not like the 2 strikers receiving the ball all game with their back to goal. They can't present effective outlets for our mid and defence like that. The 3-5-2 with a regista puts the focus of our possession back near our goal as opposed to up front because we sacrifice a trequartista for a regista. A team like Barca will have 2 CBs and a DM behind half while we'll have 3 CBs and Pirlo behind half. So you can see where pressure can pin us deep.

I really really favour the idea of dual formations. I think a formation with 4 men at the back is absolutely necessary for Europe. I think the 3-5-2 is proven in Serie A and should be used until it is proven a failure. We have a lot of versatile, intelligent, hard-working players. I don't think 2 formations is too much for them to grasp.

IMO, you can tell when the 3-5-2 will struggle as soon as the game starts based on the opponent. I can tell right away at least. I think Conte needs an alternative and he needs to be able to switch to it faster. You know right away if they're man marking Pirlo and pressing high up the pitch that it will be difficult.

I agree. We need an alternative. Dropping 3-5-2 completely wouldn't be wise but many opponents already found a way to play against us. Some element of surprise would be good to have.

 

[Gian]

In my honest opinion this current 3-5-2 or our old 'modified' 4-3-3 are pretty similar or maybe the same imo

Juventus' 433:

-------Barzagli - Bonucci
-----------------------------------Chiellini
Lichtsteiner --------Pirlo
------ Vidal------------Marchisio--------
Pepe----------------------------------
-----------------Matri---------Vucinic

Juventus 352:

Barzagli----Bonucci---Chiellini
-------------Pirlo---------------
Lichtsteiner----Vidal--Marchisio--Asamoah
-----------Striker-------Vucinic----------


Pepe was sacrificed for a LWB and Chiellini moved to a LCB; that much didnt change.

 

[alexjuventino]

buffon
licht-barz-chiellini-ogbonna
vidal-pirlo-marchisio
pepe-llorente-tevez

i would like to see this or we could put vucinic and tevez on the wings

 

[edgardavids2608]

btw in a true 4-3-3 with no trequartista you need very attacking wing backs and midfielders that are very possesion based players. If you want to play 4-2-3-1 you need very dynamic wingers and players capable of putting you under alot of pressure. We have players who could potentially press but not sure we have the skill in midfield to dominate possesion nor wingers to really put pressure on a defense. 4-2-3-1 requires speedy wingers

 

[Vlad]

In my honest opinion this current 3-5-2 or our old 'modified' 4-3-3 are pretty similar or maybe the same imo

Juventus' 433:

-------Barzagli - Bonucci
-----------------------------------Chiellini
Lichtsteiner --------Pirlo
------ Vidal------------Marchisio--------
Pepe----------------------------------
-----------------Matri---------Vucinic

Juventus 352:

Barzagli----Bonucci---Chiellini
-------------Pirlo---------------
Lichtsteiner----Vidal--Marchisio--Asamoah
-----------Striker-------Vucinic----------


Pepe was sacrificed for a LWB and Chiellini moved to a LCB; that much didnt change.

My thoughts exactly. When you play against opponent with much more quality than us, like Bayern last year, playing 433 instead of 352 won't change much. In fact we've seen Italy outplaying Spain (read Barcelona) this summer with 352. It was the second time Italy played using 352 against them and haven't lost in regular time.

 

[Vialli_92]

In my honest opinion this current 3-5-2 or our old 'modified' 4-3-3 are pretty similar or maybe the same imo

Juventus' 433:

-------Barzagli - Bonucci
-----------------------------------Chiellini
Lichtsteiner --------Pirlo
------ Vidal------------Marchisio--------
Pepe----------------------------------
-----------------Matri---------Vucinic

Juventus 352:

Barzagli----Bonucci---Chiellini
-------------Pirlo---------------
Lichtsteiner----Vidal--Marchisio--Asamoah
-----------Striker-------Vucinic----------


Pepe was sacrificed for a LWB and Chiellini moved to a LCB; that much didnt change.

My thoughts exactly. When you play against opponent with much more quality than us, like Bayern last year, playing 433 instead of 352 won't change much. In fact we've seen Italy outplaying Spain (read Barcelona) this summer with 352. It was the second time Italy played using 352 against them and haven't lost in regular time.

You see it is relatively similar? That means in 2 years with more money we have barely strenghtened the team really, our weakness was attack for the last 2 seasons. We had the chance this year to sign some good wing forwards to improve the team in attack. Instead we signed Tevez and Ogbonna for a combined fee of around 25-30 million. I would have rather signed 2 good wingers to give us that cutting edge up front. We could have built the attack around our wingers to give as much service as possible to Llorente with crosses and cutting inside and scoring goals.

I think we play dull football with our curret system and look clueless in attack against a top team like Bayern. All i remember from 2 legs against Bayern is Pirlo's free kick that sums it all up with our current system.

 

[Vlad]

I think we play dull football with our curret system and look clueless in attack against a top team like Bayern. All i remember from 2 legs against Bayern is Pirlo's free kick that sums it all up with our current system.

I've seen Barcelona conceding 7 goals and scoring none against the same opposition despite their tactics. I won't defend 352 blindly and I would like 433 as well but we simply lack suitable players for it.
In the next few years maybe something like this:
Buffon
Licht-Barza (Bonucci)-Chiello-Ogbonna
Vidal-Pogba-Marchisio (Asamoah)
Di Maria-Llorente-Tevez

Let's hope Di Maria becomes surplus to Real's requirements after Bale's arrival so we can step in and lure him away.

 

[Vialli_92]

I've seen Barcelona conceding 7 goals and scoring none against the same opposition despite their tactics. I won't defend 352 blindly and I would like 433 as well but we simply lack suitable players for it.
In the next few years maybe something like this:
Buffon
Licht-Barza (Bonucci)-Chiello-Ogbonna
Vidal-Pogba-Marchisio (Asamoah)
Di Maria-Llorente-Tevez

Let's hope Di Maria becomes surplus to Real's requirements after Bale's arrival so we can step in and lure him away.

Ye would like Di Maria no more than 20 million though.

 

[Zacheryah]

Considering our team, we have two future choises
3-5-2 or 3-4-1-2

Currently we have a solid team. Our back 3 is the best defence in italy, our fullbacks work, we have the best center 3 in the world, and now also 2 very skilfull forwards.

The only issue it has it : it needs a playmaker, and pirlo is aging.

current situation

we have marchisio and vidal around pirlo. Both arent able to build up the play. This team needs pirlo as a deeplying playmaker/regista to build up decently.
It has pogba, but he's to green. He's not a playmaker, his future is at marchisio's spot, when he can handle the defensive/tactical work.

3-5-2 is best

future situation

This is where it gets interesting. If pogba has matured enough, he can replace marchisio. Pogba is not a playmaker, but calm, aware and good enough to distribute and build up the play.
YES, we still need a playmaker, but he doesnt have to be as deep as pirlo is. it can be more advanced like CAM or trequartista.
One of the madrid CAM's, pastore.. all possibale.

3-4-1-2 is the ideal formation. 2 very skilfull breakers in the middle, two wingbacks on the side, 2 strikers and one beeing SS and a freerole playmaker that has some finishing skill

Transition

Pogba might be replacing marchisio, but that defensive aspect might take a while. So instead of switching immediatly to offensive playmaker, we could replace pirlo first with a temporary option. Like xabi alonso for example. once pogba offers the defensive strenght we need, we can get a long term CAM

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Secondly, for the 4-3-3

vucinic is a pretty competent wide player..

 

[Mr Chocolate]

i would prefer peluso to ogabonna as a traditional LB.

 

[edgardavids2608]

Secondly, for the 4-3-3

vucinic is a pretty competent wide player..[/QUOTE]

I agree but in a system where Vucinic is wide he is an outside forward not a true winger. I say this meaning in 4 4-3-3 the mids carry possesion and the forwards check to alot and slip behind the defense with quick ball movement. Then there is the 4-2-3-1 which people mistake for the 4-3-3 Ok this requires wingers that can get the ball and put pressure through pace dribbling etc.
Vucinic could not get in a team like bayern,dortmund, or madris and excell as a winger bc he has no pace. Next question would be if we are ok with playing the 4-3-3 with Vucinic do you really think he could carry the possesion against a team like Bayern? Bc I hate to sam\y but our cms would still get pressed to death no matter who we have there. I would say he cant bc they would hold him up and collapse on him wy to quick for his comfort. If you want to talk about a system you must realize that every position is linked and you cant just say player "x" could fit because he played wide before

 

[Catenaccio]

One thing we need to be aware of is that Juve has not 1 natural wide player - we have wing backs but no natural attacking wide players aside from Pepe who hasn't played in more than a year and Isla (who is tactically versatile but not a specialist winger that tears up defences). A lot of people will say, we don't need them in the 352 but it does limit our ability to be tactically flexible.

Imagine for one moment that a new coach was here and had no idea that Conte used a 352 system. Lichsteiner would be used as a right back and Asamoah would be considered a central mid. Giovinco would be most suited to a left sided wide player - like how Benitez is using Insigne at Napoli in the pre-season.

Assuming no Pirlo and say Benitez was coach this would be the formation: 4231: Buffon, Lichsteiner, Barzagli, Chiellini, Peluso, Vidal, Pogba, Pepe/Isla, Marchisio/Tevez, Giovinco/Vucinic, Llorente/Tevez. In other words, in the more attacking version Tevez, Llorente and Giovinco/Vucinic are in it. More balanced would have Giovinco/Vucinic out wide and Tevez or Llorente as the lone striker with Marchisio behind them.

Yeh Yeh, I know...why Benitez? The point is, rightly or wrongly this is in vogue in Europe right now. One has to question why it is? They can't all be wrong.

My point is, if Juve had a Nani type of winger who could play on the right with some sting, we could adapt very quickly without Pirlo with the players we have.

 

[LiquidPLP]

I'm waiting for Conte to use 4-3-3 (or some variation of it) more often. It's inevitable in longer term because when we face better opponents we struggle to keep possession and build something out of it. Once Pirlo is not there we struggle in 3-5-2 a lot. It looks like 5-3-2 then.

I'm a patient man. I'll wait a little longer. I just hope we buy some RWF once we sell Quag and Matri. Conte admitted he needs a winger to play 4-3-3 and I hope he gets one to actually have a choice between 3-5-2 and 4-3-3.

 

[Bianconero81]

We don't have the players for 4-3-3, and we aren't going to change to a weaker formation ( which shall result in us playing players like Chiellini and Tevez out of position only to accommodate someone like Pepe) just cuz people want to see it.

If we had wingers like Nani, Di Maria, etc... (obviously not gonna mention Ronaldo and Bale for the sake of realism) we could contemplate/consider it, but as of now the 3-5-2 is the way to go and no Pepe, Biabiany, or Ibarbo is going to change that

 

[Lion]

My thoughts exactly. When you play against opponent with much more quality than us, like Bayern last year, playing 433 instead of 352 won't change much. In fact we've seen Italy outplaying Spain (read Barcelona) this summer with 352. It was the second time Italy played using 352 against them and haven't lost in regular time.

agreed.

the formation does have weaknesses (like any formation) but the main reason we sturggle is because we lack wide players who can take on their man and run with the ball.

if litch and asamaoah had half of dani alves' or evra' attacking skills 3-5-2 would be close to perfect formation for juve.

mission for future is for juve to scout for young fullbacks who combine decent defenvie skills with great offensive ones

 

[Catenaccio]

We don't have the players for 4-3-3, and we aren't going to change to a weaker formation ( which shall result in us playing players like Chiellini and Tevez out of position only to accommodate someone like Pepe) just cuz people want to see it.

If we had wingers like Nani, Di Maria, etc... (obviously not gonna mention Ronaldo and Bale for the sake of realism) we could contemplate/consider it, but as of now the 3-5-2 is the way to go and no Pepe, Biabiany, or Ibarbo is going to change that

To be honest, we only require 1 player to change to a 433 or 4231 and that is a world class attacking right winger who can also contribute somewhat in defence. In other word, a world class version of Pepe.

i.e WC RW-------Llorente/Tevez-------Tevez/Giovinco/Vucinic

In a 4231 one of Marchisio or Pogba moves up to have a balanced formation or Tevez holds that position in a slightly more attacking line up.

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On other possible solution to the Pirlo dependency is an attacking midfielder in the Pastore, Honda or Boateng mould and have Vidal, Pogba and/or Marchisio behind him.

 

[Hist]

To be honest, we only require 1 player to change to a 433 or 4231 and that is a world class attacking right winger who can also contribute somewhat in defence. In other word, a world class version of Pepe.

i.e WC RW-------Llorente/Tevez-------Tevez/Giovinco/Vucinic

In a 4231 one of Marchisio or Pogba moves up to have a balanced formation or Tevez holds that position in a slightly more attacking line up.

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On other possible solution to the Pirlo dependency is an attacking midfielder in the Pastore, Honda or Boateng mould and have Vidal, Pogba and/or Marchisio behind him.