Tactics and Formations (15 Viewers)

[MikeM]

We still play with 3 lines like in the 50s, that's why we can't hold possession. There are no triangles.

....X X

X X X X
X X X X

I swear that is our exact formation for 90 minutes. Watch when a midfielder gets the ball and what options he has. There is no way for him to make a short pass forward because we are lacking that 4th line of play in between the other team's defense and midfield. So he can only go sideways, backwards or hit it long.

Conte is trying to cover the whole field with this because "statistically" the 4-4-2 will cover the most area of the pitch but that's not the objective of the sport. For instance, the real "benefit" we receive from this system is that the outside midfielders will be open for switches. As we saw against Notts, Pepe received tons of switches to the right wing but the problem is that he is ALONE. Because how can you cover the whole field without isolating each player. Everyone is isolated.

It's simply an outdated way to "cover the field". Because a team like Barca will have 3 players in the zone that 1 of our players cover and they simply make up for it by RUNNING more.

 

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[Hust]

We still play with 3 lines like in the 50s, that's why we can't hold possession. There are no triangles.

....X X

X X X X
X X X X

I swear that is our exact formation for 90 minutes. Watch when a midfielder gets the ball and what options he has. There is no way for him to make a short pass forward because we are lacking that 4th line of play in between the other team's defense and midfield. So he can only go sideways, backwards or hit it long.

Conte is trying to cover the whole field with this because "statistically" the 4-4-2 will cover the most area of the pitch but that's not the objective of the sport. For instance, the real "benefit" we receive from this system is that the outside midfielders will be open for switches. As we saw against Notts, Pepe received tons of switches to the right wing but the problem is that he is ALONE. Because how can you cover the whole field without isolating each player. Everyone is isolated.

I see plenty of triangles in that formation. It's the players that can't pass and lose possession which is why we lose possession. Look at Pirlo...if you say we have no triangles and stick to that argument then by default he can't keep possession.

Keep in mind the off the ball movement intelligence of the players...has nothing to do with triangles, rather the players not moving into the channels to open up possession.

 

[MikeM]

Keep in mind that diagram is not drawn to scale. Now imagine it on the field. Your triangle loses its value if each member is 15 yards apart.

 

[Hust]

Also, consistent overlapping runs by our full backs will not only pull defenders but give the wingers with the ball an added option rather than passing back to the full backs...if necessary the CBs can swing wide if now CM is and the FB has already surged forward...everyone has to be in movement but that will come with chemistry and if we keep switching starting 11's, we will never see that.

 

[MikeM]

None of that matters if we don't have the 4th line of play to use the ball properly in the middle of the field.

 

[Hust]

Keep in mind that diagram is not drawn to scale. Now imagine it on the field. Your triangle loses its value if each member is 15 yards apart.

I get what you are saying, smooth passing triangular movements are necessary, but its not down to the formation rather the players that have no options because the players without the ball are not making intelligent runs or pulling defenders for someone else to make a run.

Players like Motta/Grosso/Sissoko/Amauri/Iaquinta...these kinds of players that don't move or can't pass is what kills any kind of smooth play we may potentially build up.

Smart teams know this and pressure the fuck out of these kinds of players because they know they will either fail with a pass or just pass back to the defense that will be forced to play a long ball.

No confidence in our play, and we saw that last year.

 

[MikeM]

The 4-4-2 does not encourage any horizontal movement, that's the problem. In order to enjoy its "benefit" you must have the wingers wide or else the formation is not even 4-4-2 anymore.

 

[Hust]

None of that matters if we don't have the 4th line of play to use the ball properly in the middle of the field.

Which is why I think it's key our FB's are pushing farther up giving us the numbers in midfield...whichever CM stays back is going to be key to smother any counters until our FBs get back. Also, our final ball (crosses especially) will need to be much deadlier than last year...we wasted too many chances from poor passing in the final third and that ultimately put the defense under more pressure than was needed from counters.

 

[Hust]

The 4-4-2 does not encourage any horizontal movement, that's the problem. In order to enjoy its "benefit" you must have the wingers wide or else the formation is not even 4-4-2 anymore.

We have wingers now, though. We have pacey wingers and some good with the ball at their feet. This should even the balance out much more significantly, especially for Krasic's sake. He won't be marked out as easily. Add to the FBs that can run a lot and have no problem overlapping.

 

[Hust]

We had Motta/Grygera/Grosso last year...LOL...that's a BIG reason why we suffered...plus Amauri/Iaquinta adding nothing up front.

 

[MikeM]

You don't have to tell me the importance of FBs. If you play 4-4-2 the first thing you need are fullbacks that can run up and down the field. Which is why last year was so shocking.

 

[Hust]

IMO we are more suited to play a 433 this year...we have players that make that formation better rather than a 442. Regardless, we are much more well equipped this year than last to play a 442.

Either way, I am excited. As long as the players I mentioned don't play we should be OK.

 

[Hust]

You don't have to tell me the importance of FBs. If you play 4-4-2 the first thing you need are fullbacks that can run up and down the field. Which is why last year was so shocking.

 

[deggen10]

It wasn't a price issue, it was a system issue. Conte, like many other Italian managers, are addicted to the 4-4-2.

More that Juventus is addicted to a 2 striker system aka DelPiero.
Over the last 5 years, Milan, Inter, Napoli, Udinese, Fiorentina, Roma have mostly NOT used 4-4-2.

We still play with 3 lines like in the 50s, that's why we can't hold possession. There are no triangles.

You put a Pastore at SS/AM, Silva at RW, Balotelli at CF, Ribbery at LW etc, don't worry about the formation, you'll get all the triangles you want.

 

[Hust]

You put a Pastore at SS/AM, Silva at RW, Balotelli at CF, Ribbery at LW etc, don't worry about the formation, you'll get all the triangles you want.

That's basically what I am saying. If you have intelligent players that know movement, any team would be fine.

 

[MikeM]

If the coach lets them do what they want.

 

[deggen10]

That's basically what I am saying. If you have intelligent players that know movement, any team would be fine.

 

[Hust]

If the coach lets them do what they want.

You want Chiellini to keep making surging runs from the middle of the defense?

 

[Adrian]

In an ideal world our full backs would overlap, our pacey wingers would attack wide or even cut in when the full backs are overlapping and suddenly we'll have loads of options.

We have Pirlo who has always been able to pin point wide players from a deep position, eg. grosso and zambrotta in the world cup or even the likes of Cafu at milan.

BUT for all this to work i think you need to have a solid defence that can stand up when this is happening. Not only are we one classy CB short, we dont have any defensive midfielder who can stay back fill the holes and grind out opposition attacks, this is where i think we are screwed.

And regarding triangles and having loads of options to pass to, we have been awful for many seasons now. We dont have iniesta, xavi, messi in our team to help knock the ball around but still think our work ethic needs to work.

 

[Mauri84]

In an ideal world our full backs would overlap, our pacey wingers would attack wide or even cut in when the full backs are overlapping and suddenly we'll have loads of options.

We have Pirlo who has always been able to pin point wide players from a deep position, eg. grosso and zambrotta in the world cup or even the likes of Cafu at milan.

BUT for all this to work i think you need to have a solid defence that can stand up when this is happening. Not only are we one classy CB short, we dont have any defensive midfielder who can stay back fill the holes and grind out opposition attacks, this is where i think we are screwed.

And regarding triangles and having loads of options to pass to, we have been awful for many seasons now. We dont have iniesta, xavi, messi in our team to help knock the ball around but still think our work ethic needs to work.

We do have a Xavi/Iniesta to pass the ball around: Andrea Pirlo, as you could see today he is nothing less than those two Granadas!