[SPA] La Liga 2014/2015 (55 Viewers)

[Osman]

I'm not blaming them in any way for what they do. But you gotta take all the "luxury" goals into account when citing their goal stats.

I see it this way, they are doing what other all time great scorers done in the past (in another scale in some cases) , keep scoring when the game is won already. You don't score figures like Pele, Gerd Muller, Puskas, Romario and et al did by stop playing when you have a safe lead.

 

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[Post Ironic]

You are advocating that players should not bother doing their best and stop scoring like these games are friendlies (football is for entertainment, shocker I know...) . While romantizing past butchers and how you want thugs to kick the $#@! out of skillful masters of the game as it was in the past. Frankly ridiculous. It's one thing to state the reality of back then and now, totally another to wish violent thuggery is brought back as a way to stop actual ballers.

And oh drop the $#@!ing attitude dude and get off your high horse, it's pathetic you think you are speaking some kind of gospel, the obnoxious arrogance is coated in every word the more you post...

...and I could say the exact same thing in return.

 

[napoleonic]

well for what's worth, the very fact that messi and cr7 who have won what 8 ballon d'or in total? so far neither of them capable to win anything major at national team level, just show their true limitation IMO and perhaps further show how over inflated their statistical numbers with their clubs and make them seem to be much more than they really are.

 

[Ocelot]

I see it this way, they are doing what other all time great scorers done in the past (in another scale in some cases) , keep scoring when the game is won already. You don't score figures like Pele, Gerd Muller, Puskas, Romario and et al did by stop playing when you have a safe lead.

I don't know about players like Pele or Müller, those were way before my time. But if you look at the other top strikers today, they usually score a much lesser percentages of their goals after the game is already done & dusted. Take Tevez as an example (chose him because he's the one I've undoubtedly followed most the past season, you could take guys like Griezmann, Aguero as well of course), there are perhaps three goals you can call indecisive: The two against Parma when we destroyed them 7:0, and the third against Dortmund. And all of thsoe are still much more significant than a late goals against Cordoba when you're ahead by 5 goals already.


Now again, I don't doubt Messi's & Ronaldo's status at the top of all strikers worldwide, but if you now compare their goal stats with Tevez', Carlito's one looks almost ridiculously bad, which just doesn't reflect reality.

 

[Hist]

I'm not blaming them in any way for what they do. But you gotta take all the "luxury" goals into account when citing their goal stats.

Then you should do the same for every player who doesn't score the first or second goal in the match. Or you can just look at how many games they scored in rather than how many goals they scored in general. I am pretty sure they'd still be from another planet compared to all the strikers from the previous generation.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

They are obviously amongst the best of all time (Messi definitely in the discussion), and people trying to downplay their achievements/goals/style of play etc are retarded, but the one thing I despise is the fucking over-the-top fanboy nonsense that follows them around. It makes a mockery of the team sport of football, when fanboy fucks follow players only instead of teams and reduce football to an individual contest between player X v player Y. No like.

 

[Osman]

I don't know about players like Pele or Müller, those were way before my time. But if you look at the other top strikers today, they usually score a much lesser percentages of their goals after the game is already done & dusted. Take Tevez as an example (chose him because he's the one I've undoubtedly followed most the past season, you could take guys like Griezmann, Aguero as well of course), there are perhaps three goals you can call indecisive: The two against Parma when we destroyed them 7:0, and the third against Dortmund. And all of thsoe are still much more significant than a late goals against Cordoba when you're ahead by 5 goals already.


Now again, I don't doubt Messi's & Ronaldo's status at the top of all strikers worldwide, but if you now compare their goal stats with Tevez', Carlito's one looks almost ridiculously bad, which just doesn't reflect reality.

Thats true, but they score this much because they can. Tevez would score this much if he could, he tries plenty too but just isnt able to perform more then he is goalscoring wise.

 

[Hist]

I don't know about players like Pele or Müller, those were way before my time. But if you look at the other top strikers today, they usually score a much lesser percentages of their goals after the game is already done & dusted. Take Tevez as an example (chose him because he's the one I've undoubtedly followed most the past season, you could take guys like Griezmann, Aguero as well of course), there are perhaps three goals you can call indecisive: The two against Parma when we destroyed them 7:0, and the third against Dortmund. And all of thsoe are still much more significant than a late goals against Cordoba when you're ahead by 5 goals already.


Now again, I don't doubt Messi's & Ronaldo's status at the top of all strikers worldwide, but if you now compare their goal stats with Tevez', Carlito's one looks almost ridiculously bad, which just doesn't reflect reality.

It does. Tevez can't do what they do with the luxury goals and its not down to Juventus being worse than Barcelona. I understand that scoring a 5th goal is easier than scoring the first goal. But scoring a 5th goal is not easy and thats why very good players like Tevez can only do it once or twice in a season.

- - - Updated - - -

Another important debate that is not being considered is that the current generation has much better resources to optimize every player's performance more than any other generation before and you could this happenning in all sports now. The advancement of science and technology and the monetization of football has pooled in much better equipment, training methods, healing and recovery methods, dieting methods, football pitches, performance analysis tools and the money guarantees that the most advanced science and technology is available to footballers.

The argument I always hear is that Messi and Ronaldo score that many goals because the defenders of today are all idiots. I haven't heard any good reasons why defenders now suddenly became dumb but the general argument has always assumed that current defensive footballers are mysteriously shit.

I have not seen anyone entertain the possibility that Messi and Ronaldo are breaking all records NOT because defenders are idiots but because Messi and Ronaldo have a level of scientific and technological support that previous talented players never had. In fact I think it should be expected that the next generations will break the records of this generation precisely because of the scientific and technological advantage they will have. I am willing to bet that the average # of goals scored by strikers at the top clubs today is much higher than it used to be in older generations. I expect there to be an upwards trend in average goals scored the more advanced football becomes. The advances in the sciences supporting football have benefitted defenders too but not as much as attackers.

Look at the fitness levels of players like Messi and Ronaldo and even the players right behind them like Suarez and Bale and you'll see that footballers are much more athletic than they used to be. I am not denying that natural talent is there but I am saying that the Nurture side of a player's development is much more oprimized today than it used to be.

 

[Zacheryah]

Interesting thing about the last 3 rounds in La Liga, is that Athletico on the 37th matchday against Barcelona, could decide the title in Real Madrids favor

 

[Prototype]

They rather die than bring their city rival a title.

 

[Martin]

They rather die than bring their city rival a title.

what, still angry about the CL last year?

learn to move on, people

 

[Prototype]

If you watch their matches, than you must be aware of intensity betwen those clubs. Move on ? I don't think so.

 

[lgorTudor]

what, still angry about the CL last year?

learn to move on, people

Their rivalry is older than that

 

[IliveForJuve]

I'd much rather see Barca win the title.

 

[Martin]

Their rivalry is older than that

they should invest in some couples counseling

 

[Vlad]

They are obviously amongst the best of all time (Messi definitely in the discussion), and people trying to downplay their achievements/goals/style of play etc are retarded, but the one thing I despise is the fucking over-the-top fanboy nonsense that follows them around. It makes a mockery of the team sport of football, when fanboy fucks follow players only instead of teams and reduce football to an individual contest between player X v player Y. No like.

This

- - - Updated - - -

You are advocating that players should not bother doing their best and stop scoring like these games are friendlies (football is for entertainment, shocker I know...) . While romantizing past butchers and how you want thugs to kick the shit out of skillful masters of the game as it was in the past. Frankly ridiculous. It's one thing to state the reality of back then and now, totally another to wish violent thuggery is brought back as a way to stop actual ballers.

And oh drop the fucking attitude dude and get off your high horse, it's pathetic you think you are speaking some kind of gospel, the obnoxious arrogance is coated in every word the more you post...

The irony

 

[Ocelot]

They are obviously amongst the best of all time (Messi definitely in the discussion), and people trying to downplay their achievements/goals/style of play etc are retarded, but the one thing I despise is the fucking over-the-top fanboy nonsense that follows them around. It makes a mockery of the team sport of football, when fanboy fucks follow players only instead of teams and reduce football to an individual contest between player X v player Y. No like.

Definitely.

Though the countermovement, people talking them down simply because of their annoying fanboys is also rather annoying in itself, even if it might be very understandable.

 

[Post Ironic]

It does. Tevez can't do what they do with the luxury goals and its not down to Juventus being worse than Barcelona. I understand that scoring a 5th goal is easier than scoring the first goal. But scoring a 5th goal is not easy and thats why very good players like Tevez can only do it once or twice in a season.

- - - Updated - - -

Another important debate that is not being considered is that the current generation has much better resources to optimize every player's performance more than any other generation before and you could this happenning in all sports now. The advancement of science and technology and the monetization of football has pooled in much better equipment, training methods, healing and recovery methods, dieting methods, football pitches, performance analysis tools and the money guarantees that the most advanced science and technology is available to footballers.

The argument I always hear is that Messi and Ronaldo score that many goals because the defenders of today are all idiots. I haven't heard any good reasons why defenders now suddenly became dumb but the general argument has always assumed that current defensive footballers are mysteriously $#@!.

I have not seen anyone entertain the possibility that Messi and Ronaldo are breaking all records NOT because defenders are idiots but because Messi and Ronaldo have a level of scientific and technological support that previous talented players never had. In fact I think it should be expected that the next generations will break the records of this generation precisely because of the scientific and technological advantage they will have. I am willing to bet that the average # of goals scored by strikers at the top clubs today is much higher than it used to be in older generations. I expect there to be an upwards trend in average goals scored the more advanced football becomes. The advances in the sciences supporting football have benefitted defenders too but not as much as attackers.

Look at the fitness levels of players like Messi and Ronaldo and even the players right behind them like Suarez and Bale and you'll see that footballers are much more athletic than they used to be. I am not denying that natural talent is there but I am saying that the Nurture side of a player's development is much more oprimized today than it used to be.

Right... So the advances in sport science have only benefitted the attackers... Somehow the defenders have gotten worse.

Ridiculous. The rules of the game have continuously been tweaked for the last 15-20 years to favour attacking play. Even the fact every "potentially" dangerous tackle is now carded. Pre-2000 you'd rarely see a card issued for slide tackles that defenders got ball and took out the player as well, in fact you'd rarely see a card at all. Now, you can win the ball, but if you take out the player, it's almost an automatic card and free kick/penalty. It doesn't matter if you made a play on the ball. Sliding tackles are basically being eliminated from the game slowly. Hence the disappearance of the ball-winning Central-Defensive Mid. They're becoming a rare bird these days. Hence the reason defenders slide into tackles so much less frequently. They've almost eliminated one of the most valuable skills in a defender's arsenal.

It's ridiculous that you think advances in sport science would favour only Messi and Ronaldo, and allow them to run riot over defences. Everyone has the benefit. Rule changes are what allows them to destroy defences.

And as an aside. Messi has scored 11 of his 40 La Liga goals with a 3+ goal lead. 9 of those have come at 75' or later in matches, against mostly the worst teams in La Liga. 11 of 40. That's over 25% completely meaningless goals.

You guys talk about entertainment value. But entertainment value is having some kind of competitive parity. Or at least the semblance of it. That's why North American sports are so entertaining. Because teams can go from top to bottom in a year, and back again, without being destroyed by the financial repercussions of missing CL. A soft salary cap+transfer cap would certainly do football good. 8-0 against a team that has maybe a 1-2 mil transfer kitty. Yeah. Very entertaining.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

Definitely.

Though the countermovement, people talking them down simply because of their annoying fanboys is also rather annoying in itself, even if it might be very understandable.

Stop being so damned balanced and rational

 

[Hist]

Right... So the advances in sport science have only benefitted the attackers... Somehow the defenders have gotten worse.

Ridiculous. The rules of the game have continuously been tweaked for the last 15-20 years to favour attacking play. Even the fact every "potentially" dangerous tackle is now carded. Pre-2000 you'd rarely see a card issued for slide tackles that defenders got ball and took out the player as well, in fact you'd rarely see a card at all. Now, you can win the ball, but if you take out the player, it's almost an automatic card and free kick/penalty. It doesn't matter if you made a play on the ball. Sliding tackles are basically being eliminated from the game slowly. Hence the disappearance of the ball-winning Central-Defensive Mid. They're becoming a rare bird these days. Hence the reason defenders slide into tackles so much less frequently. They've almost eliminated one of the most valuable skills in a defender's arsenal.

It's ridiculous that you think advances in sport science would favour only Messi and Ronaldo, and allow them to run riot over defences. Everyone has the benefit. Rule changes are what allows them to destroy defences.

And as an aside. Messi has scored 11 of his 40 La Liga goals with a 3+ goal lead. 9 of those have come at 75' or later in matches, against mostly the worst teams in La Liga. 11 of 40. That's over 25% completely meaningless goals.

You guys talk about entertainment value. But entertainment value is having some kind of competitive parity. Or at least the semblance of it. That's why North American sports are so entertaining. Because teams can go from top to bottom in a year, and back again, without being destroyed by the financial repercussions of missing CL. A soft salary cap+transfer cap would certainly do football good. 8-0 against a team that has maybe a 1-2 mil transfer kitty. Yeah. Very entertaining.

The advances in sport science have benefitted attackers more than defenders yes. It improved athletism above everything else. Things like speed, stamina, acceleration and so on which are basically attacking attributes. As you said, the rules have been slowly altered to favor attackers in the sense that they are now more protected from injuries which is only fair. And it is not just Messi and Ronaldo that benefitted from this. Look at other top players like Suarez, Cavani, Bale, Neymar. They are all machines. A decade ago Nedved was the only machine around now players are faster and fitter than they have ever been before. I m willing to bet that the average goals scored by a first team striker at a top club is higher than the average used to be a decade and certaintly 2 decades ago.

I think you are exaggerating the difference in rules and physicality over the last couple of decades. You don't get a card if you perform a sliding tackle and win the ball. You get a card if you get the man then the ball or the man without the ball. The only difference I can think of is the rule of two-legged sliding tackles and those are banned in the EPL and warrant an automatic red. I am not sure La liga and Serie A apply that rule.

You make it seem that every player back then was a Gentile or a Keane which I dont think is true. Gentile stands out because he was abnormally aggressive and going back a decade ago you had guys like Montero getting a red card every other game for being abnormally agressive. More leeway is given now perhaps but its not as large of a gap as you make it seem. DOnt take refereeing mistakes to be indicative of the rules. Maradona used his hand to win a worldcup.