[Serie A] Napoli 1-2 JUVENTUS [March 3rd, 2018] (2 Viewers)

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Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,252
No one wanted to get rid of 4231.it was more about bitterness of the Cardiff that made people hate it for a while.

Anyway,today Max said we will probably play 4231. Fingers crossed, could help us finding a momentum.
I defenitely wanted to get rid of 4231 because of our midfield personnel, it needed 433 because of lack of quality, the latter babysits more limited players like Khedira more, more support. The 4231 exposes an already limited midfield in numerical sense. Had no consistent chance against Real or most top quality mids, who all play with 3 CMs.


You need prime Vidal, Kante or Makelele to babysit someone like Pjanic who barely makes a dent working off the ball. You couple him with a sloth like Khedira for too long, and you just beging for trouble, tho I liked our offensive players in this formation.
 

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juve103423

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2010
949
so weird that it got us into the cl final
Thats what I am talking about. We lost 4-1. We got that far despite playing a striker as a winger (due to injuries as well), not because of. That would be hard to prove. We also quickly bought a handful of wingers after that. If that LW-Mario experiment was super amazing, then it would have made sense to carry on. But no, we didnt.
 

PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,843
16 (17 really with a better head to head) points clear with 13 games left to go is an almost insurmountable lead. We don’t fuck up/choke in Serie A, we save that for Europe.
We haven't been choking in Coppa as well, until this season.

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juve103423

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2010
949
I defenitely wanted to get rid of 4231 because of our midfield personnel, it needed 433 because of lack of quality, the latter babysits more limited players like Khedira more, more support. The 4231 exposes an already limited midfield in numerical sense. Had no consistent chance against Real or most top quality mids, who all play with 3 CMs.


You need prime Vidal, Kante or Makelele to babysit someone like Pjanic who barely makes a dent working off the ball. You couple him with a sloth like Khedira for too long, and you just beging for trouble, tho I liked our offensive players in this formation.
This is very stupid and not based on anything. It sounds like a logical reasoning, but its not that simple. You are neglecting a lot of parameters. Putting 1 more number in midfield, means taking that player from another line.

Pjanic is actually working pretty hard in midfield, running most in all our games. Its just that he isnt a great aggressive tackler and when he is on the ball, he is also not 'aggressive' and potent enough to drive the midfield.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,252
This is very stupid and not based on anything. It sounds like a logical reasoning, but its not that simple. You are neglecting a lot of parameters. Putting 1 more number in midfield, means taking that player from another line.

Pjanic is actually working pretty hard in midfield, running most in all our games. Its just that he isnt a great aggressive tackler and when he is on the ball, he is also not 'aggressive' and potent enough to drive the midfield.

Um, midfield as in central midfield, and we were overrun by Real not only on skill/technical level, but because they were playing 4-3-1-2, essentially 4 CMs, who our 2 limited CMs (in defensive sense), couldnt get near of (especially when they played their fullbacks as wide as they did, stretched us out completely, no one had the time come help out the mids). It IS sound reasoning because this is the reason you rarely ever see 2 man mids anymore in most top clubs. Midfield gives you control and wins you games.


Pjanic can work as hard as he wants, but he has little to no impact in physical sense in the midfield. He gets overrun not only in speed but strength, he is a regista who focuses on distribution but lacks the stature for most of the other all around tasks. Its not his fault, he should be complimented with more dynamic players. But rest assured a midfield is in trouble if it needs to rely on Pjanic working hard and running alot. He can recover few balls with positioning smarts, but thats basically it.

in that set up if 3 of your "central" midfielders are Pjanic, Khedira and Dybala (as the AM who is given freedom from defensive duties much since he is a forward), then you are defenitely asking to be spinning trying to chase your tail in most of the toughest match ups.


This doesnt mean 4-3-3 is the solution, personnel is the issue more then anything else, but the limitations of 2 man mids is more obvious with the lacking personnel in midfield.
 

sgjuveboy

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2012
2,723
I’m pretty sure that deep down Allegri knows that players such as Bonucci, Cancelo, Berna, Mandzukic, and Dybala are actually the better options in midfield compared to the turtles we have bought as CMs.

But allegri will never have the balls to drop them, hurt their feelings, and create a bad relationship with ‘international’ World Cup winner like Khedira.
 

juve103423

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2010
949
Um, midfield as in central midfield, and we were overrun by Real not only on skill/technical level, but because they were playing 4-3-1-2, essentially 4 CMs, who our 2 limited CMs (in defensive sense), couldnt get near of (especially when they played their fullbacks as wide as they did, stretched us out completely, no one had the time come help out the mids). It IS sound reasoning because this is the reason you rarely ever see 2 man mids anymore in most top clubs. Midfield gives you control and wins you games.


Pjanic can work as hard as he wants, but he has little to no impact in physical sense in the midfield. He gets overrun not only in speed but strength, he is a regista who focuses on distribution but lacks the stature for most of the other all around tasks. Its not his fault, he should be complimented with more dynamic players. But rest assured a midfield is in trouble if it needs to rely on Pjanic working hard and running alot. He can recover few balls with positioning smarts, but thats basically it.

in that set up if 3 of your "central" midfielders are Pjanic, Khedira and Dybala (as the AM who is given freedom from defensive duties much since he is a forward), then you are defenitely asking to be spinning trying to chase your tail in most of the toughest match ups.



This doesnt mean 4-3-3 is the solution, personnel is the issue more then anything else, but the limitations of 2 man mids is more obvious with the lacking personnel in midfield.
I agree with the part in bold, the rest, not really. Controlling a game isnt about filling in as many CMs as possible. Its more about having a game plan, every player having a ROLE and individual tasks, instead of having 5 players overlapping eachother in responsibilities as we see it with Allegris tactics. Playing 4-4-2 will mean losing midfield control to a team playing 4-3-3 ? that doesnt make sense at all. We have seen how shit we have been trying to play this formation for long now. If you have 2 good wingers (we have plenty) and have the tactics build up around that, then 2 guys in midfield isnt inferior against a 4-3-3, if you play wide and stretch them out. Its the basics of tactics. If you put a high number of players in one area there will be less in another. You gotta play to your strengths. If your strength is a solid selection of CMs then field them all, if not, then play a formation that suits your best players.

And you cant use that 4-1 loss to Real to prove anything. How many games did we loose with 4-3-3 as well. Real had a better team and could edge us in so many ways that night, mostly having a huge mental edge over us. And we played pussy tactics with Barzagli as RB, Alves as RW, just like Allegri tried it with De Sciglio instead of one of our best players Cancelo. Same result, another lesson not learned. If we keep trying to cover our weaknesses on the cost of not using our strengths, then we will never win anything important. Thats why I am hugely against fielding 3 of our current midfielders simply because they are all mostly average. If we had Vidal, Pogba, Pirlo and (prime) Marchisio, then I would suit them all in, or atleast 3 of them.

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I’m pretty sure that deep down Allegri knows that players such as Bonucci, Cancelo, Berna, Mandzukic, and Dybala are actually the better options in midfield compared to the turtles we have bought as CMs.

But allegri will never have the balls to drop them, hurt their feelings, and create a bad relationship with ‘international’ World Cup winner like Khedira.
It is not very serious to suggest that any of those 5 players should be better midfielders than the professional midfielders that we have, even though they are not top-class.
You are not the only one in here who ACTUALLY think that these guys can play midfield, which is hilarious.

Putting Bonucci or Mandzukic in a CM role they would get eating alive and make a complete fool of themselves. They dont have the speed, stamina, agility or technique to be there, with players all around them. Nor the vision or calmness. Mandzukic with a passing accuracy of 50% and 17 passes a game, now distributing the ball and being responsible for 50+ passes, plus running twice the distance he usually does? Nah mate. Thats some Football Manager 2010 level shit.
 
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Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,559
Strong lineup :tup:
Szczesny
Cancelo
Bonucci
Chiellini
Alex Sandro
Emre Can
Pjanic
Matuidi
Bernardeschi
Ronaldo
Mandzukic


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juve103423

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2010
949
Thats what I am talking about. We lost 4-1. We got that far despite playing a striker as a winger (due to injuries as well), not because of. That would be hard to prove. We also quickly bought a handful of wingers after that. If that LW-Mario experiment was super amazing, then it would have made sense to carry on. But no, we didnt.
How the hell is this post controversial and awaiting moderator approval? lol. Im basically stating the facts, that we did a heavy winger upgrade after the use of Mandzukic as an emergency winger, which would seem to suggest that we would prefer real wingers. Its so easy to give continuous and butthurt downvotes, far harder to prove your own point and bring some good arguments.
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,954
Wow you are starting to sound as irrelevant as Allegri. You are hiding behind a keyboard and that is where Allegri belongs right now too.

Bringing all these statistics to prove that juve has been a top team for the past five years. You know what top teams do? Top teams win ECL.

If you beat 100 top teams to reach the final of ECL and get beaten, you are not a top team. Just a ‘giant slayer’ like athletico Madrid, but never the giant.

Edgardavids2608 Allegri FC 0:1 Sgjuveboy
Thats fine if thats your view but that also means there are only 2 top teams in the world right now. Barca and Madrid. Everyone else are scrubs
 

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