Serie A: Lazio vs Juventus [Dec 15th 2007] (9 Viewers)

[denco]

No they are not reliable but 1 hour can be enough to assess some things.

15 minutes would be totally inadequate but an 1 hour is not so bad and in that hour I did not see what was so bad about Molinaro and what was so good about Tiago

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Dominic]

Molinaro lost possesion too often, with some poor crossing and wayward longballs. Although he was often left isolated at the back, with no other choise but to hoof the ball forward.

Tiago did not do anything spectacular, but when he entered the line-up, we looked like we were able to keep possesion for the first time in the game. His simple, yet precise passing improved our play.

Other than that, I don't really care for Tiago either though.

 

[Azzurri7]

No they are not reliable but 1 hour can be enough to assess some things.

15 minutes would be totally inadequate but an 1 hour is not so bad and in that hour I did not see what was so bad about Molinaro and what was so good about Tiago

Let me see

- Not marking well?

- terrible crosses??

- can't even combine with a player playing on his side, like Nedved or Ale, all what he's doing running like crazy and crossing. Unlike what was Chiellini or Zambo doing at his position.

- Always hesitating, looking scared


I like Molinaro but he should really improve or else i don't see a place for him.

Tiago was good, maybe lot of you expect him to make some thing out of this world and to be rated 9 after the amount of money we paid for him, but looking closely at the game nothing was working in the middle until he stepped over, he got some nice touches on the ball and a very good vision. Had trezeguet scored that goal everyone would have praised Tiago.

 

[A.D.Piero]

In my view Molinaro is not as bad as you say.
It's so clear that he needs more exprience and has to improve himself.but in the lack of players we have I think he's the best choice.
If chiellini plays as Wingback,Criscito will replace him.
I prefer the formation ranieri is using right now to the one I described

 

[Azzurri7]

Chiellini is playing excellent CB, there's no need to put him back as a LB. Criscito should be sold/loaned ASAP. Molinaro better start improving himself more or I'm afraid he'll follow Criscito.

 

[Vinman]

I finally saw the highlights of this game at 5a m this morning (damn channel 5)

I was expecting after reading match reports, to see a totally abject Molinaro and an excellent Tiago.

To my surprise but not shockingly I saw nothing of the sort.

Granted I only saw 1 hour of the game, 30 mins each half but unless they cut out all the bits where Molinaro sucked big time and Tiago was on fire then i don't what the fuss was all about.

First of all Molinaro, he did not play that wel from what I saw but he was no worse than the other back 4 and most of the dangerous moments from Juve were not down his side as Buffon's great save of Rocchi's shot came from a cross from the opposite side.

Pandev's 1st goal was a from Mutarelli's cross from the right, and Pandev's 2nd was also from a right sided cross but he is usually the scapegoat on here.

Andy, Juve Sempre and some others were at pains to tell us how well Tiago performed but unless i am missing something, I did not see it.

The so called assist to Trez was firstly a foul on Mudingayi that the Italian directors showed again to prove it wasa foul and Trez was by himself and i guarantee every member of this forum would have made that pass.

I thought it was an eye of the needle pass but it was just a simple pass to Trez who was totally free. He in the 30 minutes of 2nd half passed the ball 4 times to an opponent.

I am not hating on him, Andy and his price tag has got nothing to do with it. He is the same player that I have noticed from Chelsea days and he is just another player to me.

You can understand those that have never seen him play expecting incredible things from him cos of his price tag.

Not his fault he cost that much but life is never fair, ppl expect that because you cost a lot you gotta be special and when Zanetti starts producing better passes than he does then it makes you wonder.

I don't remember the person that said his passes were weak because that person was absolutely right. The passes that take out opposition, when he tried them, were easily cut out.

He did play badly or anything but he did not do anything that would make me think drop so and so player for his inclusion.

As for Molinaro, like I said unless they did not show where he was really horrible then the stick he got on here was over the top just like the Tiago praise

BLASPHEMY !!!!

Dennis, be prepared for the backlash !!

 

[Ahmedou]

No they are not reliable but 1 hour can be enough to assess some things.

15 minutes would be totally inadequate but an 1 hour is not so bad and in that hour I did not see what was so bad about Molinaro and what was so good about Tiago

We are praising Tiago because the second half of the Juventus was better than its first. If you had seen 1 hour you must notice that we get more than a chance to score on the second half. Our first half was simply horrible. And that's clearly due to his entrance.

 

[Vinman]

We are praising Tiago because the second half of the Juventus was better than its first. If you had seen 1 hour you must notice that we get more than a chance to score on the second half. Our first half was simply horrible. And that's clearly due to his entrance.

Oh, was that it ??

You forgot to also mention that after the game ended, he was able to turn water to wine, and stones to bread

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Molianro WAS terrible against Lazio... I would give him 5 as a max for such display.

I wasn't impressed as the rest of you by Tiago.

 

[Ahmedou]

Oh, was that it ??

You forgot to also mention that after the game ended, he was able to turn water to wine, and stones to bread

Sorry for my english expression difficulties...
i wanna to say, he realy bring something, helping the team to get better possesion and create more games...

Maybe i should say "that's partially due to..."

 

[pavelnedved]

tiago didn't impress me either

 

[Salvo]

yeah tiago didnt do much but at least its a start. and what about almiron he started ok. but no where is he? molinaro needs to get better and a t 24 he needs to do it quick.

 

[Ahmed]

Oh, was that it ??

You forgot to also mention that after the game ended, he was able to turn water to wine, and stones to bread

he wasn't the difference between the 2 teams, that is for sure, but he did well...I felt he didnt see as much of the ball for my liking

 

[Cronios]

IMO Tiago wasnt that impressive, but he showed some impressive elements, our midfield really lacks.
Just like i said at the beginning of the season, we have too many wingers, so we must use two every game and two CMs.
Being a defensive-wise team, all of our midfielders should be able to defend if necessary and IMO, they are all very capable to do that
(maybe Palla would be the only exception here).
Being focused on the defense, that much, we have to do some sacrifices.
Crap's Juve, DD's Juve and CR's Juve, all sacrificed creativity in the middle.
We have been playing with two wingers and two DMs and we let all the offensive work to our wingers since, usually, all of the DMs we used, cant pass the ball properly (Vieira had potential and showed that at his first 2 months).
Thats why we depend on counterattacks and long balls.
It is a tactical choice, this choice has to be taken at the beginning of the season, after evaluating our players material and cannot be changed during the season, because the team will lose her character, teamwork and effectiveness.
It will be like starting the season all over again, from the beginning.
I was happy to see us spending 30+mil and buying two midfielders, ABLE, to change that! Almiron and Tiago are the kind of players who supposed to pass a lot and defend occasionally and they were supposed to be completed with players that can defend a lot and pass the ball occasionally, players like Zanetti and Nocerino.
So it all seemed very logical, having a balanced team, with a balanced midfield, one CM and one DM and a proper back up solution.
But, all of a sudden, CR abandoned this system and switched back to our old archi-defensive system with the two DMs and he never gave the opportunity to our CMs again.
I was really puzzled about this tactical decision. Apparently it was smth more than Tiago's and Almiron's fitness levels. We were not conceding so many balls just by losing possession in the midfield and we were still having creativity problems in the midfield, why would CR force back the double DM scheme?
I ve discussed this matter to a former coach and he was kind enough to enlighten me. That coach is not a Juve fun, but he can rate our current material. The tactical decision, was made because of our defenders material, everybody, even a non Juve fun could see that our defense struggled and could not cope well, like the rest of the team, esp after Andrade's injury! CR had no option, than to sacrifice a bit of our creativity in the midfield just to help our weak defense.
The outstanding Nocerino's level of fitness and great performances, combined with the horrible Almiron's performances and low fitness levels of Tiago, expelled the CM from our formation and made the 4-4-2 with two DMs, the permanent solution. Our team was used to that scheme for years, our veteran wingers+ attackers knew how to be efficient that way and the results were good enough, right away. Thats why CR does not give Tiago a try so often, its because a tactical choice was made, we have the results now and we cannot risk on ruining our balance, by changing our scheme.
In all our attempts to try a new scheme with a CM, our team seems a bit scared, shaky and fussy,at start, we need more time to adapt a new scheme, maybe after x-mas, with the arrival of a new CM to replace Almiron and a new reliable CB, (or the return of Andrade), we could try that and prepare our team during the break.
It is really hard for any CM to impress, under those circumstances,
but Tiago showed that he has some speed, he has a swift pass, he can also defend if its necessary, he can make a few on the spot decisions, with other words he can offer what our current DMs cant.
Its just a matter of tactical choices, do our attackers+wingers really need more support than our fragile defense?
Answer this and you may answer if we need a CM or a DM...



About Molinaro, i had the courage to bash him,right after his previous match, probably his best with the Juve jersey and all i said about him, Molinaro proved on the field against Lazio. He is a leech, he cant perform without the support of a great player, he cant stand his ground. Neddy wasnt good today and couldnt support him,
Molinaro was the one that should cover up Neddy's inefficience and he failed miserably, his true role and value was exposed because of that!
Just sooner than expected and in a period of time Molinaro was considered on form:drill: This was a game, Molinaro ought to perform, this was the game, his team, needed him the most,
he doesnt only lacks the skills, he also lacked the spirit!
He is not Juve material and he will never will be...

 

[denco]

Cronios thanks for that it was enlightening. I dont get to see that much of Juventus so its difficult to assess some players.

It seems to me though from what I have seen and what I have read is that Juventus seem to improve in the second half of games, Dp was said to change the game against Atalanta, Camoranesi was sais to change the game for us against Inter and Cagliari.

Iaquinta against Parma and now Tiago against Lazio

Could it not be that we play better in the second half after Ranieri had told some home truths to em and that the intorduction of any player does not matter, we may bring on Kermit the frog and Snuffleupagus and they would still improve our passing?

The same anallogy you used for Molinaro, I will use for Almiron and Tiago as they need better players working with them to justify their inclusion in a big team

 

[Marc]

If you want an objective opinion on Molinaro, you certainly don´t ask Cronios.

 

[Cronios]

CR is an "interactive" coach, his subs and tactical changes are better than average and many times, his changes have turned the games to our favor.
I admire that, because very few coaches can do that. So his tactical choices do make sense (not most of them time, though) and help our team, i have to start giving him some credit for that from now on, because its not the first time it happened and it cant be random.
Generally, i agree that, the selection of a fresh player with new orders adapted to our adversaries play/game do work by themselves some times and help the new comers to shine. Plus the fact, that they are rested, they come in with greater determination, they have more strengths and the added stamina help them to outmuscle and overrun opponents they wouldnt normally.
Some of our veterans have the feel of the game and our team and adapt to the situation themselves, DP may go back and assist the midfield, Treze is going wide, Zebina comes forward, Zanetti drifted to the left at this match and gave 2 brilliant passes/assists our left wingers couldnt. Neddy usually draws deeper than our LBs and cover their mistakes, esp if we are holding a lead. Some roles do change, our strong morality and determination, combined with the experience, work wonders in some of our players, in some cases. Sometimes their work isnt obvious by the first look and ppl tend to confuse witch was the element, that did made the difference in the end,
most of the times, the new players take the credit, or the inspiration of the coach, but i agree its not always like that. (it might be the case this particular time with Tiago)

Thankfully, we have some champions(ok, that includes Iaquinta too:xmas: ) in our team, that may suck all game along, but a few moments of brilliance may be enough to turn the game into our favor (Neddy DP and Treze to name a few more).
Every case is different, there is no winning formula, a combination of correct tactical changes, individual moments of brilliance, skill superiority, determination, belief to the win and the strength of Juve, may be enough to overcome any opponent and negative result, from Inter to Siena. Sometimes, its the seer Juventus proud, it doesnt allow our players to lose (Buffon also does his best too )
However, a single player does the difference all more rarely than they used to do,
we have no more Neddys and EMOs to be the MOM at every single game. We have a different savior at each games and that shows we are becoming a team and not just a group of skilled players.
The consistent performances and the ability to create this magic moments all the more often, will make the final judgement,
time will tell if what we see now is some random phenomenon or a pre-conceived plan...

If you want an objective opinion on Molinaro, you certainly don´t ask Cronios.

Thats almost true

 

[king Ale]

CR is an "interactive" coach, his subs and tactical changes are better than average and many times, his changes have turned the games to our favor.
I admire that, because very few coaches can do that. So his tactical choices do make sense (not most of them time, though) and help our team, i have to start giving him some credit for that from now on, because its not the first time it happened and it cant be random.
Generally, i agree that, the selection of a fresh player with new orders adapted to our adversaries play/game do work by themselves some times and help the new comers to shine. Plus the fact, that they are rested, they come in with greater determination, they have more strengths and the added stamina help them to outmuscle and overrun opponents they wouldnt normally.
Some of our veterans have the feel of the game and our team and adapt to the situation themselves, DP may go back and assist the midfield, Treze is going wide, Zebina comes forward, Zanetti drifted to the left at this match and gave 2 brilliant passes/assists our left wingers couldnt. Neddy usually draws deeper than our LBs and cover their mistakes, esp if we are holding a lead. Some roles do change, our strong morality and determination, combined with the experience, work wonders in some of our players, in some cases. Sometimes their work isnt obvious by the first look and ppl tend to confuse witch was the element, that did made the difference in the end,
most of the times, the new players take the credit, or the inspiration of the coach, but i agree its not always like that. (it might be the case this particular time with Tiago)

Thankfully, we have some champions(ok, that includes Iaquinta too:xmas: ) in our team, that may suck all game along, but a few moments of brilliance may be enough to turn the game into our favor (Neddy DP and Treze to name a few more).
Every case is different, there is no winning formula, a combination of correct tactical changes, individual moments of brilliance, skill superiority, determination, belief to the win and the strength of Juve, may be enough to overcome any opponent and negative result, from Inter to Siena. Sometimes, its the seer Juventus proud, it doesnt allow our players to lose (Buffon also does his best too )
However, a single player does the difference all more rarely than they used to do,
we have no more Neddys and EMOs to be the MOM at every single game. We have a different savior at each games and that shows we are becoming a team and not just a group of skilled players.
The consistent performances and the ability to create this magic moments all the more often, will make the final judgement,
time will tell if what we see now is some random phenomenon or a pre-conceived plan...



Thats almost true

You sure have a point in your posts but for God sake, write your comments in separate paragraphs. Reading them is very difficult mate.

 

[Cronios]

But Marko, you have to admit that i didnt attack Molinaro for this game, (up until now), despite the fact, he gave me a very very good chance.
I do try not be biased and i m not easily impressed. My opinions rarely establish and change, because i m open minded and i want to have a round image of the subject first, but when i do form an opinion i m sure about it and a single fact cannot make me ignore the other facts i accumulated, so far, to reach over a certain conclusion.
I used to bash CR, Iaquinta, Boum Boum, Molinaro and Secco and when CR + Iaquinta delivered and earned my respect i stopped, the same cannot be said for the rest. I have no personal interest to bash them, i just want the best for Juve.
Why would i bash Molinaro or any other Juve player?
I do have a reason to bash Molinaro, because he is not a move to right direction
and because he has been praised for things he didnt deliver, with other words,IMO he hurts Juve's interests.
He was very lucky to avoid competition and be where he is and i ve seen much better players than him getting ruined for not being that lucky.
Tiago for ex is a victim of tactical choices, if he had Molinaro's chances to prove who he is, we wouldnt be there right now, probably.
If Balza was still here and Molinaro had competition, i would either respect Molinaro or most of the ppl here, couldnt even spell his name. This is how things work in the world of football. From the the largest FCs, to the semi-pro local teams...
When a player like Molinaro reaches that position, he really must do a lot of things to prove he is worthy of it and i dont see Molinaro doing anything good, than just avoiding damage.
I wish Molinaro, all the best, the last time i bashed him, he got injured
(i m not implying that i jinxed him),
honestly, i hope that he will become the next Maldini,
but i really cant see it coming right now.
And i am a man that keeps his eyes open, i dont just hope for the best with my eyes closed.
For a good cross Molinaro does, i also rate the other 9 horrible he did before...

 

[Amaurisimo]

IMO Tiago wasnt that impressive, but he showed some impressive elements, our midfield really lacks.
Just like i said at the beginning of the season, we have too many wingers, so we must use two every game and two CMs.
Being a defensive-wise team, all of our midfielders should be able to defend if necessary and IMO, they are all very capable to do that
(maybe Palla would be the only exception here).
Being focused on the defense, that much, we have to do some sacrifices.
Crap's Juve, DD's Juve and CR's Juve, all sacrificed creativity in the middle.
We have been playing with two wingers and two DMs and we let all the offensive work to our wingers since, usually, all of the DMs we used, cant pass the ball properly (Vieira had potential and showed that at his first 2 months).
Thats why we depend on counterattacks and long balls.
It is a tactical choice, this choice has to be taken at the beginning of the season, after evaluating our players material and cannot be changed during the season, because the team will lose her character, teamwork and effectiveness.
It will be like starting the season all over again, from the beginning.
I was happy to see us spending 30+mil and buying two midfielders, ABLE, to change that! Almiron and Tiago are the kind of players who supposed to pass a lot and defend occasionally and they were supposed to be completed with players that can defend a lot and pass the ball occasionally, players like Zanetti and Nocerino.
So it all seemed very logical, having a balanced team, with a balanced midfield, one CM and one DM and a proper back up solution.
But, all of a sudden, CR abandoned this system and switched back to our old archi-defensive system with the two DMs and he never gave the opportunity to our CMs again.
I was really puzzled about this tactical decision. Apparently it was smth more than Tiago's and Almiron's fitness levels. We were not conceding so many balls just by losing possession in the midfield and we were still having creativity problems in the midfield, why would CR force back the double DM scheme?
I ve discussed this matter to a former coach and he was kind enough to enlighten me. That coach is not a Juve fun, but he can rate our current material. The tactical decision, was made because of our defenders material, everybody, even a non Juve fun could see that our defense struggled and could not cope well, like the rest of the team, esp after Andrade's injury! CR had no option, than to sacrifice a bit of our creativity in the midfield just to help our weak defense.
The outstanding Nocerino's level of fitness and great performances, combined with the horrible Almiron's performances and low fitness levels of Tiago, expelled the CM from our formation and made the 4-4-2 with two DMs, the permanent solution. Our team was used to that scheme for years, our veteran wingers+ attackers knew how to be efficient that way and the results were good enough, right away. Thats why CR does not give Tiago a try so often, its because a tactical choice was made, we have the results now and we cannot risk on ruining our balance, by changing our scheme.
In all our attempts to try a new scheme with a CM, our team seems a bit scared, shaky and fussy,at start, we need more time to adapt a new scheme, maybe after x-mas, with the arrival of a new CM to replace Almiron and a new reliable CB, (or the return of Andrade), we could try that and prepare our team during the break.
It is really hard for any CM to impress, under those circumstances,
but Tiago showed that he has some speed, he has a swift pass, he can also defend if its necessary, he can make a few on the spot decisions, with other words he can offer what our current DMs cant.
Its just a matter of tactical choices, do our attackers+wingers really need more support than our fragile defense?
Answer this and you may answer if we need a CM or a DM...



About Molinaro, i had the courage to bash him,right after his previous match, probably his best with the Juve jersey and all i said about him, Molinaro proved on the field against Lazio. He is a leech, he cant perform without the support of a great player, he cant stand his ground. Neddy wasnt good today and couldnt support him,
Molinaro was the one that should cover up Neddy's inefficience and he failed miserably, his true role and value was exposed because of that!
Just sooner than expected and in a period of time Molinaro was considered on form:drill: This was a game, Molinaro ought to perform, this was the game, his team, needed him the most,
he doesnt only lacks the skills, he also lacked the spirit!
He is not Juve material and he will never will be...

CR is an "interactive" coach, his subs and tactical changes are better than average and many times, his changes have turned the games to our favor.
I admire that, because very few coaches can do that. So his tactical choices do make sense (not most of them time, though) and help our team, i have to start giving him some credit for that from now on, because its not the first time it happened and it cant be random.
Generally, i agree that, the selection of a fresh player with new orders adapted to our adversaries play/game do work by themselves some times and help the new comers to shine. Plus the fact, that they are rested, they come in with greater determination, they have more strengths and the added stamina help them to outmuscle and overrun opponents they wouldnt normally.
Some of our veterans have the feel of the game and our team and adapt to the situation themselves, DP may go back and assist the midfield, Treze is going wide, Zebina comes forward, Zanetti drifted to the left at this match and gave 2 brilliant passes/assists our left wingers couldnt. Neddy usually draws deeper than our LBs and cover their mistakes, esp if we are holding a lead. Some roles do change, our strong morality and determination, combined with the experience, work wonders in some of our players, in some cases. Sometimes their work isnt obvious by the first look and ppl tend to confuse witch was the element, that did made the difference in the end,
most of the times, the new players take the credit, or the inspiration of the coach, but i agree its not always like that. (it might be the case this particular time with Tiago)

Thankfully, we have some champions(ok, that includes Iaquinta too:xmas: ) in our team, that may suck all game along, but a few moments of brilliance may be enough to turn the game into our favor (Neddy DP and Treze to name a few more).
Every case is different, there is no winning formula, a combination of correct tactical changes, individual moments of brilliance, skill superiority, determination, belief to the win and the strength of Juve, may be enough to overcome any opponent and negative result, from Inter to Siena. Sometimes, its the seer Juventus proud, it doesnt allow our players to lose (Buffon also does his best too )
However, a single player does the difference all more rarely than they used to do,
we have no more Neddys and EMOs to be the MOM at every single game. We have a different savior at each games and that shows we are becoming a team and not just a group of skilled players.
The consistent performances and the ability to create this magic moments all the more often, will make the final judgement,
time will tell if what we see now is some random phenomenon or a pre-conceived plan...



Thats almost true

But Marko, you have to admit that i didnt attack Molinaro for this game, (up until now), despite the fact, he gave me a very very good chance.
I do try not be biased and i m not easily impressed. My opinions rarely establish and change, because i m open minded and i want to have a round image of the subject first, but when i do form an opinion i m sure about it and a single fact cannot make me ignore the other facts i accumulated, so far, to reach over a certain conclusion.
I used to bash CR, Iaquinta, Boum Boum, Molinaro and Secco and when CR + Iaquinta delivered and earned my respect i stopped, the same cannot be said for the rest. I have no personal interest to bash them, i just want the best for Juve.
Why would i bash Molinaro or any other Juve player?
I do have a reason to bash Molinaro, because he is not a move to right direction
and because he has been praised for things he didnt deliver, with other words,IMO he hurts Juve's interests.
He was very lucky to avoid competition and be where he is and i ve seen much better players than him getting ruined for not being that lucky.
Tiago for ex is a victim of tactical choices, if he had Molinaro's chances to prove who he is, we wouldnt be there right now, probably.
If Balza was still here and Molinaro had competition, i would either respect Molinaro or most of the ppl here, couldnt even spell his name. This is how things work in the world of football. From the the largest FCs, to the semi-pro local teams...
When a player like Molinaro reaches that position, he really must do a lot of things to prove he is worthy of it and i dont see Molinaro doing anything good, than just avoiding damage.
I wish Molinaro, all the best, the last time i bashed him, he got injured
(i m not implying that i jinxed him),
honestly, i hope that he will become the next Maldini,
but i really cant see it coming right now.
And i am a man that keeps his eyes open, i dont just hope for the best with my eyes closed.
For a good cross Molinaro does, i also rate the other 9 horrible he did before...

I actually found this quite interesting. Hopefully educational for some of us