[SERIE A] JUVENTUS 1-1 Sampdoria (02/15/09) (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Azzurri7
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There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Just because we have a good goals for and goals against record does not mean the team is playing well. We scored 4 goals against Genoa, four against Milan. THis 4 goal games inflate our goals for record to look better than it actually is. The timeliness of the goals is what matters not the amount of goals score. Who the fuck cares if we win 4-0. In reality, we only need one goal in that game to win. However, the next game if we tie 0-0 then our goals per game average is 2, which seems like a good average. However, I would rather have a 1 goal per game average over those two games and win both games 1-o. Timeliness not quantity is what counts!
Regarding Ruineri's "forced" line-ups due to injuries, this is bullshit. I conceded that our backline options are pretty limited. But what about the midfield and attack. Ruineri has never been "forced" to start Nedved or Marchionni. He has always ALWAYS selected them. Yes, Camo has been hurt but Gio has never been. He is not "forced" to use Nedved AND Marchionni when Gio is available which he has been for the entire season. Do not tell me that Nedved has expierence and Gio is too young. This is bullshit. Gio will grow with experience. We are so much more dangerous going forward when we have a winger who can run at his defender, beat him, and make a good cross. This is how we scored today. Also, remember that Gio tracked down a Samp player from one side o the field to the other and stole the ball back - so he is not a defensive liability. Nedved is too slow on the ball, constantly gets out run and does not have a knack for goal. Gio would have finnished the DP pass instead of hitting the post. nedved did not have a good game. He missed two opportunities and gave up the ball too easily when Ruinieri moved him to the middle of the pitch in the second half.
Furthermore, w have our forwards (counting Gio). Why not use a trident against weaker team and keep the pressure on thier defense instead of letting the other team run at our amateur backline game in and game out. Obviously, we could not field a trident today with IQ suspended and Trez out. But there have been many occasions this year that this option would have made sense.
The players need to play better, it is the coaches responsibility to put the players in places were they can succeed. Ruineri has not been "forced" to field the 442 formation nor has he been "forced" to put out such a shat lineup every fuckin week.
Another fuckin tie . . but hey what do you expect - that is the Parma mentality that Ruinieri has brought to Juve.
FUCK Runieri, FUCK Milan.
Now it is time to focus on the CL . . . where I am sure we will see Nedved in the starting lineup.
Regarding Ruineri's "forced" line-ups due to injuries, this is bullshit. I conceded that our backline options are pretty limited. But what about the midfield and attack. Ruineri has never been "forced" to start Nedved or Marchionni. He has always ALWAYS selected them. Yes, Camo has been hurt but Gio has never been. He is not "forced" to use Nedved AND Marchionni when Gio is available which he has been for the entire season. Do not tell me that Nedved has expierence and Gio is too young. This is bullshit. Gio will grow with experience. We are so much more dangerous going forward when we have a winger who can run at his defender, beat him, and make a good cross. This is how we scored today. Also, remember that Gio tracked down a Samp player from one side o the field to the other and stole the ball back - so he is not a defensive liability. Nedved is too slow on the ball, constantly gets out run and does not have a knack for goal. Gio would have finnished the DP pass instead of hitting the post. nedved did not have a good game. He missed two opportunities and gave up the ball too easily when Ruinieri moved him to the middle of the pitch in the second half.
Furthermore, w have our forwards (counting Gio). Why not use a trident against weaker team and keep the pressure on thier defense instead of letting the other team run at our amateur backline game in and game out. Obviously, we could not field a trident today with IQ suspended and Trez out. But there have been many occasions this year that this option would have made sense.
The players need to play better, it is the coaches responsibility to put the players in places were they can succeed. Ruineri has not been "forced" to field the 442 formation nor has he been "forced" to put out such a shat lineup every fuckin week.
Another fuckin tie . . but hey what do you expect - that is the Parma mentality that Ruinieri has brought to Juve.
FUCK Runieri, FUCK Milan.
Now it is time to focus on the CL . . . where I am sure we will see Nedved in the starting lineup.
I agree with Alen on this one. Molinaro was Juve's best defender today. He attacked well, and wasn't too bad defensively. Surprisingly enough his crosses were mostly spot on today, they created some problems for Samp's defense. Mellberg and Grygera on the other hand were both utterly horrible, terrible performances by both players.
Juventus dominated the game and were unlucky to hit the post 3 times. Other than the defense most players actually played well today and cannot be blamed. The ball just didn't want to go in. DP kept asking for the ball and was always looking to create, Amauri could have done better but he worked his arse off and made a nuisance of himself, Nedved started off poorly but became better when he moved position. Gio was explosive on that left hand side, and showed Ranieri again that he should be getting more games.
Juventus dominated the game and were unlucky to hit the post 3 times. Other than the defense most players actually played well today and cannot be blamed. The ball just didn't want to go in. DP kept asking for the ball and was always looking to create, Amauri could have done better but he worked his arse off and made a nuisance of himself, Nedved started off poorly but became better when he moved position. Gio was explosive on that left hand side, and showed Ranieri again that he should be getting more games.
FUCK FUCK FUCK. Inter won. THe only defense worse than ours is Milan. Maldini and Kaladze are so fuckin bad. If Adriano did not shit his pants in front of goal twice inter would have won by more than just one goal. Oh yeah, thanks Pippo for not scoring. All you do is come in and always poch a goal against smaller teams and it drives me crazy. Now I want you to score and you fuck it up. Fuck you!
You just said that 1 year and 8 months after serie B Juve couldn't have done worse than 2nd place in serie A, CL 1/8 final and Coppa semifinal.
It's not me who has to open the eyes, it's you who should stop dreaming and start facing the facts. Perhaps i shouldn't bother, but what the hell.........
Summer of 2006 - We lost 7 top players. To buy 7 players of their quality we need at least 150m for transfers and 60m for 1 year wages.
2006/07 - Inter and Milan got ~100m eur for serie A tv rights, we got shit.
-Inter and Milan got at least 50m from playing CL, the tv rights from there etc. We got shit
-Sponsors were fighting to have their names on Milan's or Inter's jersey while we lost our main sponsors.
2007/08
- Inter and Milan got at least 50m from playing CL and the tv rights from there. We got shit.
Now..... Inter and Milan didn't need to replace their stars. We couldn't replace them with such quality even if we wanted to, but we still needed to replace 7 players and we also needed to replace the underperforming and lower quality players that we used only in serie B.
We had to buy many players. Since we couldn't buy stars we went for good and solid players and we took the risk that some of these players won't perform well.
In the meantime Milan and Inter only needed to add 1 or 2 more players to the already strong squad. And then the so much underestimated wages (which form 70% of the whole transfer)..... we couldn't offer 12m or 9m for wages of a star player like Milan and Inter did.
If you read Secco's latest interview he said that we simply had to buy many players and we couldn't buy many stars, but starting from next summer we'll go for top quality because now we have a good and big squad and we can start buying 1,2 or 3 players in the mercato instead of fixing the squad problems started by Calciopoli. ( i was saying the same thing all along actually. He just confirmed it now)
But i don't really expect you to understand this. You'll use your only counter-argument, and that is "You defend the board all the time". If you didn't understand this until now you will never understand it.
Or maybe you will understand it when you'll have your own money and see that it's not that simple to live your life as you think now.
It's not me who has to open the eyes, it's you who should stop dreaming and start facing the facts. Perhaps i shouldn't bother, but what the hell.........
Summer of 2006 - We lost 7 top players. To buy 7 players of their quality we need at least 150m for transfers and 60m for 1 year wages.
2006/07 - Inter and Milan got ~100m eur for serie A tv rights, we got shit.
-Inter and Milan got at least 50m from playing CL, the tv rights from there etc. We got shit
-Sponsors were fighting to have their names on Milan's or Inter's jersey while we lost our main sponsors.
2007/08
- Inter and Milan got at least 50m from playing CL and the tv rights from there. We got shit.
Now..... Inter and Milan didn't need to replace their stars. We couldn't replace them with such quality even if we wanted to, but we still needed to replace 7 players and we also needed to replace the underperforming and lower quality players that we used only in serie B.
We had to buy many players. Since we couldn't buy stars we went for good and solid players and we took the risk that some of these players won't perform well.
In the meantime Milan and Inter only needed to add 1 or 2 more players to the already strong squad. And then the so much underestimated wages (which form 70% of the whole transfer)..... we couldn't offer 12m or 9m for wages of a star player like Milan and Inter did.
If you read Secco's latest interview he said that we simply had to buy many players and we couldn't buy many stars, but starting from next summer we'll go for top quality because now we have a good and big squad and we can start buying 1,2 or 3 players in the mercato instead of fixing the squad problems started by Calciopoli. ( i was saying the same thing all along actually. He just confirmed it now)
But i don't really expect you to understand this. You'll use your only counter-argument, and that is "You defend the board all the time". If you didn't understand this until now you will never understand it.
Or maybe you will understand it when you'll have your own money and see that it's not that simple to live your life as you think now.
This is cruel, lol. For the last 7 months Ive been nose deep in a thesis paper, doing a meta-analysis on a topic covering thousands of patients. I know more about biases in stats and in their interpretation than most, so spare me the ridicule that I'm ignorant with stats.
I can safely say that stats in sports such as goals for, goals against, and most importantly league position, appear at face value. What variables am I not accounting for that make my conclusion drawn from those lists weaker? All teams have played the same amount of games, field the same amount of players, play the same amount of home/away fixtures, are subject to the exact same rules, etc, etc. They are matched on just about everything. In fact, the only variables that would produce a meaningful effect size on those list are things like injury's or fixture congestion, which would be impossible to operationalize, but in our case, wouldn't matter, as they make my conclusion drawn from them stronger ie: even with injurys, were still conceding very few goals. Not to mention in the context of this argument, completely irrelevant, as Ranieri is not responsible for injury's or fixture congestion (although I’m sure your response will be squad rotation, where there is no flexibility b/c of injuries, with the exception of Nedved/Seba which I agree).
Doesn't make sensical moves? Imbecilic substitutions? I guess u missed the last 2 games, because Ranieri’s subs had an affect.
Marchionni played consecutive matches b/c Camo and Brazzo were injured.
If by strength through the middle, your referring to Momo, Zanetti, Poulsen, Tiago, Marchisio, than how does a 4-4-2 not suit those players?
I can safely say that stats in sports such as goals for, goals against, and most importantly league position, appear at face value. What variables am I not accounting for that make my conclusion drawn from those lists weaker? All teams have played the same amount of games, field the same amount of players, play the same amount of home/away fixtures, are subject to the exact same rules, etc, etc. They are matched on just about everything. In fact, the only variables that would produce a meaningful effect size on those list are things like injury's or fixture congestion, which would be impossible to operationalize, but in our case, wouldn't matter, as they make my conclusion drawn from them stronger ie: even with injurys, were still conceding very few goals. Not to mention in the context of this argument, completely irrelevant, as Ranieri is not responsible for injury's or fixture congestion (although I’m sure your response will be squad rotation, where there is no flexibility b/c of injuries, with the exception of Nedved/Seba which I agree).
Doesn't make sensical moves? Imbecilic substitutions? I guess u missed the last 2 games, because Ranieri’s subs had an affect.
Marchionni played consecutive matches b/c Camo and Brazzo were injured.
If by strength through the middle, your referring to Momo, Zanetti, Poulsen, Tiago, Marchisio, than how does a 4-4-2 not suit those players?
Your arguing attitude is much uglier than mine, because you are the only one calling childish names instead of arguing like a two adults.
It's you who don't listen to what I said, and not me who don't listen you. Ofcourse I know what is going on, and how much money we lost. Again you come to me with statistics and numbers.
I want argue with you with imaginary numbers.. at the time we "lost", which is a wrong word to use, those rights, we also had much lower wage budget back then, and we sold a lot of players and we kept the balance that way.
The problem is you don't read what I said, and I really hate to re-type what I said million times. So listen carefully. I am not arguing with you that we didn't buy greatest players out there, what I am arguing with you is that the money that we had, we wasted it very bad. Almiron, Tiago and the likes. We brought players that were useless, like Salihamidzic for example. Yes, he came for free, but he doesn't play for free you know? You bring in Tiago for a big sum, and you pay him loads of money, but you only use him now. let's forget all these, you have the best striking partners in Serie A, why do you spend almost all your budget on another one, Amauri? 22mil + wages, you do the math, you love that.. Forget that, why do you bring Poulsen?? for 10 Million + the wages, do the math. Are you biased enough to ignore this?? These two transfer probably make 40 Mil. Not to forget, we spend money at re-building the stadium. At a time when we are in "crisis". how much did we spend on the new stadium so far? Add that to 40 Million, and tell me, could we build a better squad with that money in this short of time? Don't you tell me all the time that we should have bought defenders? Why don't you admit it now, just because you want to win this argument?
This board is no football experts, and Ranieri is not the best solution, you agree with me on this too, but you refuse to admit it now. I will not go with Deschampes case, cause you yourself should have known that that was the biggest ever mistake..
Ranieri is going to stay for another year, no matter how we end up this season. How do you expect me to praise this board for that? I don't see a bright future with this board, neither with Ranieri. So go ahead, ignore everything I wrote and keep on praising this board, in the end both of us know that they aren't building any shit..
And last thing, please tell me, what is the wage budget we pay now? and what is Roma's and Milan's? Why our budget is so close to them, when we don't have quality players like you claim, and what is our budget is going to be when we sign the quality players?
Please answer these red parts, and I will absolutely will be listening you very carefully and without bias.
It's you who don't listen to what I said, and not me who don't listen you. Ofcourse I know what is going on, and how much money we lost. Again you come to me with statistics and numbers.
I want argue with you with imaginary numbers.. at the time we "lost", which is a wrong word to use, those rights, we also had much lower wage budget back then, and we sold a lot of players and we kept the balance that way.
The problem is you don't read what I said, and I really hate to re-type what I said million times. So listen carefully. I am not arguing with you that we didn't buy greatest players out there, what I am arguing with you is that the money that we had, we wasted it very bad. Almiron, Tiago and the likes. We brought players that were useless, like Salihamidzic for example. Yes, he came for free, but he doesn't play for free you know? You bring in Tiago for a big sum, and you pay him loads of money, but you only use him now. let's forget all these, you have the best striking partners in Serie A, why do you spend almost all your budget on another one, Amauri? 22mil + wages, you do the math, you love that.. Forget that, why do you bring Poulsen?? for 10 Million + the wages, do the math. Are you biased enough to ignore this?? These two transfer probably make 40 Mil. Not to forget, we spend money at re-building the stadium. At a time when we are in "crisis". how much did we spend on the new stadium so far? Add that to 40 Million, and tell me, could we build a better squad with that money in this short of time? Don't you tell me all the time that we should have bought defenders? Why don't you admit it now, just because you want to win this argument?
This board is no football experts, and Ranieri is not the best solution, you agree with me on this too, but you refuse to admit it now. I will not go with Deschampes case, cause you yourself should have known that that was the biggest ever mistake..
Ranieri is going to stay for another year, no matter how we end up this season. How do you expect me to praise this board for that? I don't see a bright future with this board, neither with Ranieri. So go ahead, ignore everything I wrote and keep on praising this board, in the end both of us know that they aren't building any shit..
And last thing, please tell me, what is the wage budget we pay now? and what is Roma's and Milan's? Why our budget is so close to them, when we don't have quality players like you claim, and what is our budget is going to be when we sign the quality players?
Please answer these red parts, and I will absolutely will be listening you very carefully and without bias.
I'll reply to the rest in a moment. First i'd like to share one theory of mine.
Is it possible that we knew about Trez's problems?
Trez wasn't injured when he went to the operation. He went there because he saw that he can't handle the pain that's been following him since last season anymore. Trez went to the operation table right after the CL match against Zenit that meant the world to him.
And our interest in Amauri became clear right after Trez started feeling the pain in his knees.
Maybe Amauri was going to be bought anyway, but Trezeguet's knee problems and pain is a fact.
Is it possible that we knew about Trez's problems?
Trez wasn't injured when he went to the operation. He went there because he saw that he can't handle the pain that's been following him since last season anymore. Trez went to the operation table right after the CL match against Zenit that meant the world to him.
And our interest in Amauri became clear right after Trez started feeling the pain in his knees.
Maybe Amauri was going to be bought anyway, but Trezeguet's knee problems and pain is a fact.
We were after a MC. Everyone here wanted a MC. Almiron was awful, Tiago flopped and Marchisio was a "?". We wanted to sell Tiago and replace him with another MC. But Tiago didn't want to leave and we were left with a MC more than needed.
Now, you can argue that Poulsen is not the MC we should've bought, but unless i'm wrong you're arguing that instead of buying a MC we should've bought a defender?
So, since the board and everyone here (almost everyone) wanted a MC (Some were having orgasms at the thought of Xabi Alonso), why do you think that we didn't need one and that everyone else was wrong?
We wanted Xabi, Pool didn't want to let him go, and at the end Ranieri chose Poulsen. Simple as that.
It matters what you get at the end. And at the end it turned out that the difference between bought and sold players was 15m. We were "only" in 15m minus during the mercato. So, yes, i'd say that we didn't have money.
Oh, and we payed 21m+Nocerino for these two, not 40m
Jack answered you about this. The price of steel is at it's lowest. It was perfect timing to start building a stadium. We probably saved tons of money that way, compared to the money we were going to pay in 2-3 years.
I answered you about the 40m and once more i have to remind you about the concept of long term planning. Instead of buying Amauri and Poulsen and start building a stadium maybe we could have TRIED TO BUY (it's far from certain that we would've bought) Fabregas, Ronaldinho and Gabriel Milito and spend 90m on them. But i'll go with what we did and i think we did the smarter thing.
As for the defenders, no need to repeat what i've said many times. I still claim that we must've bought good defenders.
Good thing you mentioned Deschamps. What happened to him after he left Juve?
I assume there was a lot of interest for him and many teams wanted him. Who got him at the end?
Edit: Oh, i see that he's unemployed ever since he left us.
Our wage budget is much bigger than Roma's and it's some 20m lower than Milan's. So far we're doing better than both of them and doing better than Milan is a good achievement, considering that they didn't even play in CL and they used their B team in UEFA Cup.
With a bigger wage budget we could attract much better players and, hopefully, instead of doing "just better" than Milan, we will do "much better" than them and maybe even better than Inter.
Since Secco said that we'll buy only top quality in the summer i assume that we're getting stronger financially, thanks to the smart conducting of business, and we can finally allow ourselves more freedom on the market.
Now, you can argue that Poulsen is not the MC we should've bought, but unless i'm wrong you're arguing that instead of buying a MC we should've bought a defender?
So, since the board and everyone here (almost everyone) wanted a MC (Some were having orgasms at the thought of Xabi Alonso), why do you think that we didn't need one and that everyone else was wrong?
We wanted Xabi, Pool didn't want to let him go, and at the end Ranieri chose Poulsen. Simple as that.
It matters what you get at the end. And at the end it turned out that the difference between bought and sold players was 15m. We were "only" in 15m minus during the mercato. So, yes, i'd say that we didn't have money.
Oh, and we payed 21m+Nocerino for these two, not 40m
Jack answered you about this. The price of steel is at it's lowest. It was perfect timing to start building a stadium. We probably saved tons of money that way, compared to the money we were going to pay in 2-3 years.
I answered you about the 40m and once more i have to remind you about the concept of long term planning. Instead of buying Amauri and Poulsen and start building a stadium maybe we could have TRIED TO BUY (it's far from certain that we would've bought) Fabregas, Ronaldinho and Gabriel Milito and spend 90m on them. But i'll go with what we did and i think we did the smarter thing.
As for the defenders, no need to repeat what i've said many times. I still claim that we must've bought good defenders.
Good thing you mentioned Deschamps. What happened to him after he left Juve?
I assume there was a lot of interest for him and many teams wanted him. Who got him at the end?
Edit: Oh, i see that he's unemployed ever since he left us.
Our wage budget is much bigger than Roma's and it's some 20m lower than Milan's. So far we're doing better than both of them and doing better than Milan is a good achievement, considering that they didn't even play in CL and they used their B team in UEFA Cup.
With a bigger wage budget we could attract much better players and, hopefully, instead of doing "just better" than Milan, we will do "much better" than them and maybe even better than Inter.
Since Secco said that we'll buy only top quality in the summer i assume that we're getting stronger financially, thanks to the smart conducting of business, and we can finally allow ourselves more freedom on the market.