[Serie A] Bologna 1-2 JUVENTUS (Feb. 21st 2010) (2 Viewers)

[Alen]

And now we have similar people saying that we should give Zacherroni time and praise him for getting a few good results despite playing like absolute neanderthals.

Zaccheroni doesn't have time nor is anyone giving him time to make this team play well. He's here for 3 more months and his job is to get us the 4th place.
Is he doing this? Yes.

How on earth can he get so much critics then?

Even a great coach will need time and it's questionable if he'll make this set of players play nice football and superiorly win. Even less an average coach like Zaccheroni can do it.

We all knew this and we all agreed when Zac came that the only thing that matters now are the wins. We knew that he's not able to make this team play great. We at least knew that in this short amount of time he's definitely not able to do it and fix what his predecessors did with this team and with their player choice.

So why do some criticize him for the 3 wins in a row just as much as they criticized Zero for the thousand defeats, for getting us eliminated from CL in December and for eliminating us from every other competition we were in?

I'll tell you why. Because Zac came with a reputation of an awful coach while Ciro is a club legend. Zac can win us the league, Ciro can get us relegated and still the critics on them will be the same.
Ah, the bias.

 

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[Buck Fuddy]

How come everyone is giving the the CBs decent ratings? Both were partially at fault for the goal (especially Chiellini). Actually that type of cross was not dealt with on many occasions. I think they had a pretty average game.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally our CB's have been getting a lot of unwarranted criticism at times.
Both Chiellini & Legro had some troubles yesterday, no denying that. Every player makes some mistakes during the game. Heck, I saw a lot of bad decisions by Del Piero as well yesterday. In the end though, both Chiellini & Legro were absolutely vital at a lot of times. So for me the good clearly outweighs the bad.

As for the goal, maybe they were indeed at fault. De Ceglie & Buffon were as well. But you are definitely right in saying those types of crosses are not dealt with properly. Not only yesterday.

Alex was better then Diego imo, not just the assist but also in retaining possession and trying to interplay with the midfield and Amauri (who didn't deserve such a low rating as well).

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree here.
I felt that Amauri was only useful at certain moments in the game, like near the end.

And what the hell is wrong with mommo? two games now that he looks completely out of sorts. This one more than the Ajax game, reminded me of his form for Liverpool towards the end of his time there.

This worries me to be honest. He is one of the few players who has actually become worse since the change in manager.

 

[Salvo]

i dont care about beautiful footbal for now, give me results, we are getting that now, good football will follow.

 

[Jasp]

And now we have similar people saying that we should give Zacherroni time and praise him for getting a few good results despite playing like absolute neanderthals.

Some folks never learn.

It is easy to focus on the negative things. But I think there are some positive signs. If things go down the crapper, then you get to say I told you so.

But until then I think we should focus on:

Results: 2 draws, 3 wins. We're in a situation where this is the far most important, even though I agree, if you keep playing like shit you will start losing.

Chances: Before Zac, the only goal we had gotten from open play in 6/7 matches was Diego against Inter, which was a horrible play by Toldo. Now we score and we create 6-9 chances during a game. Random Luck ? I think not.

Amauri: Amauri scoring is so vital. Look at the service he gets now compared to the rest of the season. This is not a Amuri good/bad comment. But nonetheless we now have a coach the knows his strengths, and manages to get the team to play on them. Yes he might go on a scoring drought again, but I got the feeling he will score a decent amount if he gets the crosses.

Positioning/Passing: Our positioning is improving. As far as I remember I havent seen two juve players competing each other for the same header, which happened embarrisingly often under Ciro. Passing is also improved. Probably as a consequence of better postioning, and clearer istruction.

Melo: Melo is improving his game. Prandelli knew he had to give him very clear instructions, I think Zac is doing the same. He had a crappy game for Zac, so he might drop his performance again, but I do spot improvement.

Diego/DP: Well, players like that just play better when a team passes and moves. But they seem to have improved under Zac. Is this due to DP improving form or Zac ? Don't know, prob a bit of both.

Now, I wont go crazy here. And don't want to go with Zac regardsless of what he achieves. I don't like 3-4-1-2(although he seem to change during the games?) But I am seeing improvement and wins. Regarding the honeymoon effect, he did start with two ties, so I don't buy that theory. As long as I'm seeing improvement I wont bash Zac(not too much at least).

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

We were lucky to escape with 3 points to be honest. We are letting them to come and attack too much and it's not like we are great when it comes to counter attacking.

 

[tibike]

So why do some criticize him for the 3 wins in a row just as much as they criticized Zero for the thousand defeats, for getting us eliminated from CL in December and for eliminating us from every other competition we were in?

We criticize him because of this:

We were lucky to escape with 3 points to be honest. We are letting them to come and attack too much and it's not like we are great when it comes to counter attacking.

and because that is what has happened in all the games under Zac. Not once were we the better them (and we played the likes of Lazio, Livorno and Bologna), we just managed to end up with points, rather than without them. And honestly, if with him as a coach we can't outplay those three, than there is something wrong either with the coach, or with the team. Either you bash both Ciro and Zac, because we are playing equally crap football, just with more confidence due to some good results, or you bash neither, because we simply don't have the quality to play anything better.

And I'm not criticizing Zac, I'm just not praising him as some other members here are, because IMO, he hasn't done anything worthy of praise, yet.

 

[Nenz]

We criticize him because of this:



and because that is what has happened in all the games under Zac. Not once were we the better them (and we played the likes of Lazio, Livorno and Bologna), we just managed to end up with points, rather than without them. And honestly, if with him as a coach we can't outplay those three, than there is something wrong either with the coach, or with the team. Either you bash both Ciro and Zac, because we are playing equally crap football, just with more confidence due to some good results, or you bash neither, because we simply don't have the quality to play anything better.

And I'm not criticizing Zac, I'm just not praising him as some other members here are, because IMO, he hasn't done anything worthy of praise, yet.

Conveniently forgot to mention Ajax and Genoa.

 

[Azzurri7]

I don't like the fact that Zach isn't getting any credits for what he has done in our last 3 or 4 matches. He's trying and you can see it on the field.

Who cares what performance we put in so long we win? Personally I don't care how ugly we are playing because basically our season has been ruined long time ago. So long we are winning now at this stage of the season I couldn't give a rat how bad we are performing. Points is what matters the most, securing CL place.

It's also obvious Zach had his touches and ideas that is slightly, yes not much slightly working and this is what matters.

 

[RAMI-N]

I don't like the fact that Zach isn't getting any credits for what he has done in our last 3 or 4 matches. He's trying and you can see it on the field.

Who cares what performance we put in so long we win? Personally I don't care how ugly we are playing because basically our season has been ruined long time ago. So long we are winning now at this stage of the season I couldn't give a rat how bad we are performing. Points is what matters the most, securing CL place.

It's also obvious Zach had his touches and ideas that is slightly, yes not much slightly working and this is what matters.

 

[Nicholas]

Alen,Rab and Counter Strike dude.

Sensible comments from everyone of you. Andy I do feel your being harsh towards Zacc granted were not playing pretty and playing under the cosh at times but this is to be expected we had Ciro in charge for months week in week out destroying this team. Ciro physically and mentally messed this team up big time. Zacc has 3 wins in 3 cannot complain.

 

[sateeh]

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally our CB's have been getting a lot of unwarranted criticism at times.
Both Chiellini & Legro had some troubles yesterday, no denying that. Every player makes some mistakes during the game. Heck, I saw a lot of bad decisions by Del Piero as well yesterday. In the end though, both Chiellini & Legro were absolutely vital at a lot of times. So for me the good clearly outweighs the bad.

As for the goal, maybe they were indeed at fault. De Ceglie & Buffon were as well. But you are definitely right in saying those types of crosses are not dealt with properly. Not only yesterday.




Fair enough, let's agree to disagree here.
I felt that Amauri was only useful at certain moments in the game, like near the end.




This worries me to be honest. He is one of the few players who has actually become worse since the change in manager.

Yeah its alright you have your view about the game and I have mine.

Zacc mentioned Mommo after the Ajax game and how he wasn't playing well. He didn't play well again. Lets hope he gets his form back because we need him to shield the defense better. With Melo and sissoko there, that is the best cover we can provide the fragile back line.

Zaccheroni doesn't have time nor is anyone giving him time to make this team play well. He's here for 3 more months and his job is to get us the 4th place.
Is he doing this? Yes.

How on earth can he get so much critics then?

Even a great coach will need time and it's questionable if he'll make this set of players play nice football and superiorly win. Even less an average coach like Zaccheroni can do it.

We all knew this and we all agreed when Zac came that the only thing that matters now are the wins. We knew that he's not able to make this team play great. We at least knew that in this short amount of time he's definitely not able to do it and fix what his predecessors did with this team and with their player choice.

So why do some criticize him for the 3 wins in a row just as much as they criticized Zero for the thousand defeats, for getting us eliminated from CL in December and for eliminating us from every other competition we were in?

I'll tell you why. Because Zac came with a reputation of an awful coach while Ciro is a club legend. Zac can win us the league, Ciro can get us relegated and still the critics on them will be the same.
Ah, the bias.

I think it has to with people expecting too much.

 

[Jasp]

Zacc mentioned Mommo after the Ajax game and how he wasn't playing well. He didn't play well again. Lets hope he gets his form back because we need him to shield the defense better. With Melo and sissoko there, that is the best cover we can provide the fragile back line.
.

But it's also the duo that creates the most turnarounds due to bad passing, thus hurting us when we are in transition...

 

[tibike]

Conveniently forgot to mention Ajax and Genoa.

I omitted them intentionally. We were lucky against both Ajax and Genoa. But they are good teams, and I don't expect Zac to produce miracles. I don't think any coach in the world could reorganize us in such short time to make us outplay those two.

I don't like the fact that Zach isn't getting any credits for what he has done in our last 3 or 4 matches. He's trying and you can see it on the field.

Who cares what performance we put in so long we win? Personally I don't care how ugly we are playing because basically our season has been ruined long time ago. So long we are winning now at this stage of the season I couldn't give a rat how bad we are performing. Points is what matters the most, securing CL place.

It's also obvious Zach had his touches and ideas that is slightly, yes not much slightly working and this is what matters.

I care, because good performances tend to end in wins, bad performances tend to end in losses. Good performance results in more chances for us and less for opponents, which means we are more likely to win, more likely to pick up points and more likely to make the top 4. That's why everyone should care.

 

[Azzurri7]

I care, because good performances tend to end in wins, bad performances tend to end in losses. Good performance results in more chances for us and less for opponents, which means we are more likely to win, more likely to pick up points and more likely to make the top 4. That's why everyone should care.

Since when?

Like the Ajax - Juve game?

 

[tibike]

Since when?

Like the Ajax - Juve game?

Oh god, you don't really mean that, do you. What do you propose, that because we defeated Ajax despite being the worse team, we should play as bad as possible, because it's actually the worse team that wins matches?

 

[JuveJay]

Wins end in good performances

 

[v1rtu4l]

I care, because good performances tend to end in wins, bad performances tend to end in losses. Good performance results in more chances for us and less for opponents, which means we are more likely to win, more likely to pick up points and more likely to make the top 4. That's why everyone should care.

ah yeah, great philosophy ...

i suspect you are a juve fan since the time ferrara was in charge, because if you had seen the seasons under ranieri, where we at times had good games (in regards of possession) we still drew, because we could not break down the leagues bottom teams, because they put 11 men in their own box.

that what you get from playing good... you still have to have the amount of luck to score the chances. what do you got from playing good (like ajax did against us) if you donts score ? and if you are not only a football fan for 1 year you should have enough games in mind where your favourite team was totally great, having all the possesion and many chances but did not convert any of them and the bad team scored with their one and only chance and won.

you are watching too much barca, because that is probably the only team that will make your equation work. they have to have a good amount of possession, because that is their game and they cant decide a game solely by one counter attack.

thinking we would come anywhere near good football in the next year is totally rubbish. please get that out of your mind

 

[Azzurri7]

Oh god, you don't really mean that, do you. What do you propose, that because we defeated Ajax despite being the worse team, we should play as bad as possible, because it's actually the worse team that wins matches?

Are you on something? Socks?

Did you hear me saying that we should play as bad as possible? I fucking said I don't care about playing beautiful football or perform some Barcelona type game so long we win and collect points at this very delicate moment because right now we can't seek attraction but only points? What is so hard for you to get?

Your philosophy sucks, excuse me, but it really does. If you think playing beautiful football will automatically get you results then you need to sit down with an Arsenal fan.

Since long time we haven't been playing beautiful attractive football, if you haven't seen that then I wonder since when you follow this team.

 

[tibike]

ah yeah, great philosophy ...

i suspect you are a juve fan since the time ferrara was in charge, because if you had seen the seasons under ranieri, where we at times had good games (in regards of possession) we still drew, because we could not break down the leagues bottom teams, because they put 11 men in their own box.

that what you get from playing good... you still have to have the amount of luck to score the chances. what do you got from playing good (like ajax did against us) if you donts score ? and if you are not only a football fan for 1 year you should have enough games in mind where your favourite team was totally great, having all the possesion and many chances but did not convert any of them and the bad team scored with their one and only chance and won.

you are watching too much barca, because that is probably the only team that will make your equation work. they have to have a good amount of possession, because that is their game and they cant decide a game solely by one counter attack.

thinking we would come anywhere near good football in the next year is totally rubbish. please get that out of your mind

I never said we should play champagne football. We can play catenaccio for all I care. But whatever it is we play, I want us to play it well: if we want to attack, I want us to dominate the game, if we want to defend, I want us to not give the opposition a chance to score, it's that simple. That's what I meant by "good performance": having a game plan that works. Actually, I would be more than happy if we were able to win all games 1-0 and frustrating the opposition, because they can't break us down.

 

[tibike]

Are you on something? Socks?

Did you hear me saying that we should play as bad as possible? I fucking said I don't care about playing beautiful football or perform some Barcelona type game so long we win and collect points at this very delicate moment because right now we can't seek attraction but only points? What is so hard for you to get?

Your philosophy sucks, excuse me, but it really does. If you think playing beautiful football will automatically get you results then you need to sit down with an Arsenal fan.

Since long time we haven't been playing beautiful attractive football, if you haven't seen that then I wonder since when you follow this team.

Once again, I never said I want us to play attractive football, I want us to put in good performances. I, for one, do not think that good football and attractive football are the same. But anyway, I see how I could have been misunderstood, hopefully now my opinion is clearer.