[Serie A] Bologna 1-2 JUVENTUS (Feb. 21st 2010) (2 Viewers)

Man of the match - MoM

  • Diego

  • Candreva

  • Del Piero

  • Melo


Results are only viewable after voting.

tibike

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2007
1,147
i did not say with one word that we do "play" good football.

all i am sick of is this prejudice (pointed towards zaccheroni) that everything is still bad and people trying to find strange explanatian why the better result are not due to the coaches experience (in contrast to ciros inexperience). hell, they would even come up and say the aliens are responsible for the change of form before they would admit it has something to do with the changed coaching staff.

the funny thing is, that it might not even have to do with fixed opinions about some coaches, but more with the immaturity of people here that does NOT allow them to admit that they were wrong.

right now the explanation that the coaching staff is doing good work is more sensible than some logic mentioned here like "perhaps this, and perhaps that, perhaps diego found a treasure under the end of a rainbow and that boost his confindence and amauri did sleep with buffons wife so he has better confidence too".

we will only begin to realize who really deserves the credit for the results in perhaps one month time, because then we might see an even bigger signature of the coaches work (or not ... you never know).

but until proven guilty, i proclaim innocent !

its pretty much like the italian media, where moggi and everybody around juventus was already guilty without one single court hearing the witnesses. they will claim every day of the year "juve are guilty" and if they court decides juve are not guilty, they will just not report it. thats the easiest way for them to hide that they were wrong the whole time.

this attitude is very common around here ...



than you should have driven to turin and killed ferrara before he gets the chance to fuck up all ... its not like zaccheroni is responsible for that. he just tries to fix as much as he can do with the limited players and his limited ability he has.

the team was in two classes above what ferrara made them, when ranieri left and you can't tell me it is because nedved left
Look, I was against sacking Ciro, simply because Ciro wasn't the main problem. As you pointed out in your post before, our defence is abysmal and no coach can make it work, with what I wholeheartedly agree. And just for the same reason I refused to bash Ciro, I refuse to praise Zac. We are not playing good football and Zac is not our saviour. He's an average coach doing an average work (just like Ciro was, IMO). The real problem is the squad: we simply do not have enough quality to challenge for the title, we haven't had that quality for a couple of years now, plenty of us (me included) was blinded by good league positions in the last two years, which was due to us overperforming thanks to our old guard (which has since gotten older, more injury prone and less reliable).
With a great coach (or more luck), we probably could have mounted a challenge for the Scudetto. But being Juventus, we should have to squad to dominate weak teams even with average coaches.

To sum it up: we weren't playing good football under neither Ranieri, nor Ferrara, and we aren't playing good football under Zaccheroni. And no one of those three is at fault for that. Ciro's only fault was to get in charge at the worst time possible.
 

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L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,458
all i am sick of is this prejudice (pointed towards zaccheroni) that everything is still bad and people trying to find strange explanatian why the better result are not due to the coaches experience (in contrast to ciros inexperience).
Yes, but last year when Ranieri got canned after 7 straight winless matches, we won every match with Ciro at the helm and started the next season strong. Was that due to Ciro's clear superiority over Ranieri's coaching abilities?

the funny thing is, that it might not even have to do with fixed opinions about some coaches, but more with the immaturity of people here that does NOT allow them to admit that they were wrong.
How do you determine "wrong" after just a few weeks? Ciro proved that you can struggle for a while but then fall apart when your team falls in a hole and can't find its way out. What evidence do we have that Zac's going to have a better record than Ciro this season? None yet. Still too soon. And too soon to be suggesting that people were "wrong about Zac".

but until proven guilty, i proclaim innocent !
To the contrary, this is Juve. Until you've proven yourself able to deliver, you're nobody. You haven't earned anything yet. Shut up and prove it.

I've been saying that about Diego, Melo, Ciro, etc., all season. Zac gets no special treatment in my book just because he's replacing someone who was wrong for the role.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,576
Some folks will never understand that playing like absolute rubbish every match isn't acceptable. We played like dog shit last year with Ranieri, getting wins despite the poor form, and several folks here told us that those who criticized the team were delusional and it doesn't matter as long as we won. But then, suddenly, we started losing points because of our crap play, and we couldn't get back on track because we were not used to doing anything else besides playing like crap. So Ranieri was sacked and Ferrara came in, guiding us to good results in his first 6 or 8 official matches.

Haven't we heard this shit before?

We even heard it under Capello with some saying we could win Europe despite playing like crap all the time.

And now we have similar people saying that we should give Zacherroni time and praise him for getting a few good results despite playing like absolute neanderthals.

Some folks never learn.
 

v1rtu4l

Senior Member
Mar 4, 2008
6,349
Look, I was against sacking Ciro, simply because Ciro wasn't the main problem. As you pointed out in your post before, our defence is abysmal and no coach can make it work, with what I wholeheartedly agree. And just for the same reason I refused to bash Ciro, I refuse to praise Zac.
i do disagree here, because i think Ciro was A problem.
even with our not that great defensive player material, a better coach could have made it more solid.

as you saw, ranieri did make our defense look pretty solid, because his system was "custommade" for our weak defense. so the evidence is given, that you CAN make the defense work better than now and better than under ferrara

the problem with Ferrara was, that he had NO clue. he had one system in mind that he would have liked to play. it is bit like he took the "football manager" (computer game) approach to his tactics.

he thought "i have bought a good trequartista (diego) and a gread dm (melo) and i will just go to the "tactics"-button and choose "4-2-3-1" and it will work". this does actually work in these simple computer games. that is where many of you get your logic from. just place a player with a high "value" on the different positions in the tactics setup and the team will win.

as you all saw, it is NOT simple as putting strong players together on any given tactical setup/formation and they will win.

we went from a tactical system that worked pretty solid (ranieri era), to a totally new system that was not well-thought (because ferrara obviously did not even know all facet a tactical setup consisted off) to a makeshift formation (zacchs era) where the primary target is too change as less as possible (to not further confuse the player) and still fix the big wholes the phantasy-formation of ferrara had.






We are not playing good football and Zac is not our saviour. He's an average coach doing an average work (just like Ciro was, IMO). The real problem is the squad: we simply do not have enough quality to challenge for the title, we haven't had that quality for a couple of years now, plenty of us (me included) was blinded by good league positions in the last two years, which was due to us overperforming thanks to our old guard (which has since gotten older, more injury prone and less reliable).
again i will tell you that I THINK that there is a HUGE difference between Ferrara with clearly no clue on who to setup a new formation for a team and even no clue in analyzing what is going on the pitch, to any coach who has a few years of coaching on his shoulders (successful or not). you do remember the first press post-match pressconference where zacch clearly told us, what was going wrong on the field (in contrast to ferraras "we will find a way out if we hold together"). there are WORLDS between Zaccheroni and Ferrara (and again Worlds between Zaccheroni and i.e. Capello or Lippi). Since we did not get anyone better we have to make it with Zaccheroni and the limited service he can provide us with is, setting the right basement and instilling the basic functions of football into the team. that will not make us win anything great, but it will make the next coaches job much easier and lets not kid ourself. if we continued on the road with ferrara no better coach would have taken a fucked up and confused team at the end of the season. i think if zacch gets the basics into the team (basics that are not dependent on formation or tactical setup) than we have an even bigger chance that we get a chance next season.

With a great coach (or more luck), we probably could have mounted a challenge for the Scudetto. But being Juventus, we should have to squad to dominate weak teams even with average coaches.
no need to talk about what could have been, if you did not see that ferrara pretty much fucked it up. i am sounding like a ferrara hater, but if you read back in the past i did support him until the point came that it was clear that he totally had NO clue... so it is not a personal dislike (like some of you got against zacch).

To sum it up: we weren't playing good football under neither Ranieri, nor Ferrara, and we aren't playing good football under Zaccheroni. And no one of those three is at fault for that. Ciro's only fault was to get in charge at the worst time possible.
under ranieri we had a system
under ferrara the system was only in his head, but not on the pitch
zaccheroni is currently picking up the broken pieces of the supposed system of ferrara and tries to glue it together so it does hold until the next season

and please enlighten me, why was that the worst time when ciro came in ? its not like overtaking a team that ended second (lets just imagine we would have ended up third under ranieri it would still not be a tough situation).

it was ferraras decision to use a new formation, it was pretty much his responsibilty to make his project (his formation and tactical setup) work and he obviously had way to few experience to do this.

it was a deliberate and naive decision to think a change of system would be so easy.

had he had the guts, he could have just used the old ranieri system, told diego to play second striker or winger if he wants playing time and problem fixed.

the players would have known where to run, the new players would have found it easier to fit into a working system (and not being thrown into some fantasy shit formation that just works in the coaches brain) and we would have surely at least ended this situation in a top 3 spot (without the crisis we got right now)
 

v1rtu4l

Senior Member
Mar 4, 2008
6,349
Yes, but last year when Ranieri got canned after 7 straight winless matches, we won every match with Ciro at the helm and started the next season strong. Was that due to Ciro's clear superiority over Ranieri's coaching abilities?
no, it was all about the honeymoon effect (which we are witnessing right now) .. but if you all did not bash ferrara for the results only being down to the honeymoon effect back then, why do you do it now with zaccheroni ?

How do you determine "wrong" after just a few weeks? Ciro proved that you can struggle for a while but then fall apart when your team falls in a hole and can't find its way out. What evidence do we have that Zac's going to have a better record than Ciro this season? None yet. Still too soon. And too soon to be suggesting that people were "wrong about Zac".
we can not evaluate the current situation, but this scheme that "being unable to be man enough to admit one was wrong" can be seen on a very frequent base around here. it has nothing to do with the current situation, but i just predict it will be the same here ... or how many of the amauri haters have appologied in the thread for their unjust hate now he has scored (since there is service) ? alright;)



To the contrary, this is Juve. Until you've proven yourself able to deliver, you're nobody. You haven't earned anything yet. Shut up and prove it.
then you have to whistle diego from the first minute of his first game here, because before the game he has not proven anything for us ... get the logic ?

you know that a fan is also called a "supporter" ... there is a reason why it is called supporter and not "idiotic sceptic critic" ;)

I've been saying that about Diego, Melo, Ciro, etc., all season. Zac gets no special treatment in my book just because he's replacing someone who was wrong for the role.
no you surely was not that harsh to diego or melo or ciro before they actually had the chance to prove anything.

for my it is like zaccheroni started this job with a points reduction, because he was put in a more difficult situation than ferrara for instant, when he was hired

So Ranieri was sacked and Ferrara came in, guiding us to good results in his first 6 or 8 official matches.

Haven't we heard this shit before?

Some folks never learn.
then tell us when will the honeymoon period be over and when will be the first game that you will give credit for. don't make it dependent on if we play like barca, but on consecutive positive results... name a number. how many good results will be needed for you to be convinced that this is down to the changed coaching staff ?

and be sure i will call you on that, if you refrain from giving credit to the staff again, when we reached that number ...
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,576
then tell us when will the honeymoon period be over and when will be the first game that you will give credit for. don't make it dependent on if we play like barca, but on consecutive positive results... name a number. how many good results will be needed for you to be convinced that this is down to the changed coaching staff ?

and be sure i will call you on that, if you refrain from giving credit to the staff again, when we reached that number ...
We need to start playing better, or else eventually it will all come crumbling down. Don't you understand that? Don't you understand that you can't rely on Del Piero to bail us out all the time, hoping that the opponents miss sitters all the time?

Try to look at it objectively and have some foresight.
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
then you have to whistle diego from the first minute of his first game here, because before the game he has not proven anything for us ... get the logic ?
No you don't, but you will not hail the person in question. There is a middle ground here.

Zacch needs a few games here, we're not playing great but there is improvement. There is better interplay between the midfield and even the forwards. Something we did not see consistently before.

However defensively we are not that better, the only improvement there is coming from the midfield (Last ditch tackles from Melo come into mind).

Just as we praise our forwards and midfielders for producing pieces of brilliance, the defenders should take a bit of flack for not dealing those chances. Its not always the coach or the system.

We also have to remember the guy is here for the short term and he knows that. He is here to get results, period. Anything else is bonus, he is here to put us in champions league places. So it is difficult to judge him because he has very little development focus here.

Anyway its good to win again but more important its the second time we win after conceding in the league.
 
Mar 24, 2006
13,914
Okay , time to add some humble players rating based on Highlight review :D

Buffon 6
Legro 6.5
Chiellini 5.5
Grygera 5.5
Marchisio 6
Melo 6.5
Sali 6
De Ceglie 5.5
Diego 7
Amauri 6
Del Piero 6.5

Candreva 6.5
Sissoko 6
Camo N.A

Zacc 6.5

i know our Defense hasn't been fixed perfectly , but at least we are starting to bangs a lot of goals , hope we keep this positive trend until the end of the season.
:flag1:
 

tpain

Senior Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,359
now we have a problem....we used to say that 4-2-3-1 is our best formation with camo-diego-gio on the attackng midfield and amauri as striker...

But with the recent performance of delpiero, how do we switch to 4-2-3-1 with del piero in it???? and also...i really think that the board has specifically tell all the managers that they assign, NOT TO PLAY GIOVINCO....for whatever reason, i dunno!!!! i get this feeling that they are really trying to sell giovinco for high price.
 

tpain

Senior Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,359
ok lets face it....zacc is a lousy coach, ciro is a lousy coach...ranieri is a lousy coach......BUT these are the only coaches that are willing to sign on with juventus' crap team and board. great coaches like Mourinho, Hiddink or Wenger would never think of signing up with crap juventus board. thats a fact
 

jbsal

Junior Member
Jul 25, 2008
63
No you don't, but you will not hail the person in question. There is a middle ground here.

Zacch needs a few games here, we're not playing great but there is improvement. There is better interplay between the midfield and even the forwards. Something we did not see consistently before.

However defensively we are not that better, the only improvement there is coming from the midfield (Last ditch tackles from Melo come into mind).

Just as we praise our forwards and midfielders for producing pieces of brilliance, the defenders should take a bit of flack for not dealing those chances. Its not always the coach or the system.

We also have to remember the guy is here for the short term and he knows that. He is here to get results, period. Anything else is bonus, he is here to put us in champions league places. So it is difficult to judge him because he has very little development focus here.

Anyway its good to win again but more important its the second time we win after conceding in the league.
im seeing alot of differnce in our play - Zach only jus took over and has the side lookin a lot more stable - we still have work to do though - i actually agreed with his subs (delpiero sub was a little weird though) Ferrara was really clueless - he should open up a pizza shop...
 
Jan 14, 2010
270
i did not say with one word that we do "play" good football.

all i am sick of is this prejudice (pointed towards zaccheroni) that everything is still bad and people trying to find strange explanatian why the better result are not due to the coaches experience (in contrast to ciros inexperience). hell, they would even come up and say the aliens are responsible for the change of form before they would admit it has something to do with the changed coaching staff.

the funny thing is, that it might not even have to do with fixed opinions about some coaches, but more with the immaturity of people here that does NOT allow them to admit that they were wrong.

right now the explanation that the coaching staff is doing good work is more sensible than some logic mentioned here like "perhaps this, and perhaps that, perhaps diego found a treasure under the end of a rainbow and that boost his confindence and amauri did sleep with buffons wife so he has better confidence too".

we will only begin to realize who really deserves the credit for the results in perhaps one month time, because then we might see an even bigger signature of the coaches work (or not ... you never know).

but until proven guilty, i proclaim innocent !

its pretty much like the italian media, where moggi and everybody around juventus was already guilty without one single court hearing the witnesses. they will claim every day of the year "juve are guilty" and if they court decides juve are not guilty, they will just not report it. thats the easiest way for them to hide that they were wrong the whole time.

this attitude is very common around here ...



than you should have driven to turin and killed ferrara before he gets the chance to fuck up all ... its not like zaccheroni is responsible for that. he just tries to fix as much as he can do with the limited players and his limited ability he has.

the team was in two classes above what ferrara made them, when ranieri left and you can't tell me it is because nedved left
I'm not blaming Zac, as long as he keeps winning and get us the final CL spot i'm cool with that. But for the love of God can he PLEASE play GIOVINCO!?!?! the kid is electrifying when he plays and I enjoy every minute of it.
 

Nenz

Senior Member
Apr 17, 2008
10,420
Some folks will never understand that playing like absolute rubbish every match isn't acceptable. We played like dog shit last year with Ranieri, getting wins despite the poor form, and several folks here told us that those who criticized the team were delusional and it doesn't matter as long as we won. But then, suddenly, we started losing points because of our crap play, and we couldn't get back on track because we were not used to doing anything else besides playing like crap. So Ranieri was sacked and Ferrara came in, guiding us to good results in his first 6 or 8 official matches.

Haven't we heard this shit before?

We even heard it under Capello with some saying we could win Europe despite playing like crap all the time.

And now we have similar people saying that we should give Zacherroni time and praise him for getting a few good results despite playing like absolute neanderthals.

Some folks never learn.
Its not like we have a choice though unfortunately. Zac is all we could get and we have to live with it for now. One positive is the language of Zacherroni and the team, they all seem to have their feet on the ground despite the run of wins which is a nice change. Ranieri or Ciro would have avoided acknowledging problems, while Zacherroni is fine to admit that we've got a very long way to go and that gives me more confidence then I had with Ranieri and Ciro. Their biggest problem was inaction, while Zacherroni seems to never stop directing his players.

We're also starting to see flashes of good football and improvement during games and that's a sign that we're starting to follow a plan. I think everytime we're playing shit its because players get distracted and forget the game plan. So I don't blame Zac for the poor all round performances which I think the players are to blame for but rather commend him for the flashes of improvement we're starting to show.
 

El Santo

El Enmascarado de Plata
Nov 26, 2008
2,414
Grande Juventus! At this point in a season of failure and dissappointments I don't care how we play as long as we win and get the 4th CL spot. After this season we can see what went wrong and try to improve our chances of winning the scudetto next season. We need Lippi or my prefered choice Prandelli who will play the youth and some attractive football.
We hired an inexperienced coach to lead us, that's what went wrong.
 

JCK

Biased
JCK
May 11, 2004
123,527
It's ridiculous. Before each and every game the majority of posters complains about "the idiotic line-up" the coach makes yet we keep on winning. Through the game the majority of posters complains about the subs, yet Candreva scores the winner and we keep on winning. Even after the game when we've gained three points majority of posters says that we played bad and it was all luck, yet we keep on winning in the next game. Admit it, Zaccheroni has proved most of you wrong. Now have some faith and support for the guy and our team please. They need it.
If so many things annoy you about this forum, why do you keep coming back?
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
Its not like we have a choice though unfortunately. Zac is all we could get and we have to live with it for now. One positive is the language of Zacherroni and the team, they all seem to have their feet on the ground despite the run of wins which is a nice change. Ranieri or Ciro would have avoided acknowledging problems, while Zacherroni is fine to admit that we've got a very long way to go and that gives me more confidence then I had with Ranieri and Ciro. Their biggest problem was inaction, while Zacherroni seems to never stop directing his players.

We're also starting to see flashes of good football and improvement during games and that's a sign that we're starting to follow a plan. I think everytime we're playing shit its because players get distracted and forget the game plan. So I don't blame Zac for the poor all round performances which I think the players are to blame for but rather commend him for the flashes of improvement we're starting to show.
That is part of the problem. The players have not developed enough confidence to deal with the tough situations yet. That is why Alex has been so important for us as he is one of the few players that stepped up when we conceded or were under pressure.

So the mental problems with the team are still there and I suspect they will be there for a bit.

im seeing alot of differnce in our play - Zach only jus took over and has the side lookin a lot more stable - we still have work to do though - i actually agreed with his subs (delpiero sub was a little weird though) Ferrara was really clueless - he should open up a pizza shop...
Yeah his subs were good, and credit to him with the Candreva sub because it shows some balls.
 

Buck Fuddy

Lara Chedraoui fanboy
May 22, 2009
10,644
Well, does anyone else think we have found ourselves an extremely lucky coach? That's 3 consecutive wins now. 3 games in which we played ok, but also 3 games in which luck was clearly on our side.

I saw a pretty entertaining game yesterday where both teams tried to go for the win. Our early lead meant that we could play a relaxed first half. Too bad we couldn't extend our lead though.
Second half was a more nervy affair. In the end, the only difference between us & Bologna was efficiency.

Buffon 5,5 - Rather shaky.
Grygera 6 - Did his job, not a lot of difficulties
Legrottaglie 6 - Decent game. Some vital interceptions.
Chiellini 6,5 - Played a brilliant game for 99% of the time. That remaining 1% could (should?) have cost us though.
De Ceglie 5,5 - Liked his offensive contributions but you just can't rely on him when it comes to defending.
Salihamidzic 5 - Mediocre game, at best. Too many sloppy moments & contributed far too little.
Melo 6,5 - In the beginning he looked set for another crappy game but he improved rather quickly. Was absolutely vital for our midfield play.
Marchisio 6 - Decent game Once again a foolish booking though.
Diego 7 - Our brightest spark if you ask me. Definitely not perfect, but we owe a big part of the 3 points to him.
Del Piero 6,5 - On one hand he slowed up play too much, as he usually does. On the other hand he, once again, proved how vital he is.
Amauri 5,5 - Tried his best but didn't play a good game.

Sissoko 5,5 - Looked out of sorts.
Candreva 6,5 - Cool finish. And got really involved in the game.
Camoranesi -
 

sateeh

Day Walker
Jul 28, 2003
8,020
Well, does anyone else think we have found ourselves an extremely lucky coach? That's 3 consecutive wins now. 3 games in which we played ok, but also 3 games in which luck was clearly on our side.

I saw a pretty entertaining game yesterday where both teams tried to go for the win. Our early lead meant that we could play a relaxed first half. Too bad we couldn't extend our lead though.
Second half was a more nervy affair. In the end, the only difference between us & Bologna was efficiency.

Buffon 5,5 - Rather shaky.
Grygera 6 - Did his job, not a lot of difficulties
Legrottaglie 6 - Decent game. Some vital interceptions.
Chiellini 6,5 - Played a brilliant game for 99% of the time. That remaining 1% could (should?) have cost us though.
De Ceglie 5,5 - Liked his offensive contributions but you just can't rely on him when it comes to defending.
Salihamidzic 5 - Mediocre game, at best. Too many sloppy moments & contributed far too little.
Melo 6,5 - In the beginning he looked set for another crappy game but he improved rather quickly. Was absolutely vital for our midfield play.
Marchisio 6 - Decent game Once again a foolish booking though.
Diego 7 - Our brightest spark if you ask me. Definitely not perfect, but we owe a big part of the 3 points to him.
Del Piero 6,5 - On one hand he slowed up play too much, as he usually does. On the other hand he, once again, proved how vital he is.
Amauri 5,5 - Tried his best but didn't play a good game.

Sissoko 5,5 - Looked out of sorts.
Candreva 6,5 - Cool finish. And got really involved in the game.
Camoranesi -
A couple of points ( something that I noticed in the past ratings as well).

How come everyone is giving the the CBs decent ratings? Both were partially at fault for the goal (especially Chiellini). Actually that type of cross was not dealt with on many occasions. I think they had a pretty average game.

Alex was better then Diego imo, not just the assist but also in retaining possession and trying to interplay with the midfield and Amauri (who didn't deserve such a low rating as well).

And what the hell is wrong with mommo? two games now that he looks completely out of sorts. This one more than the Ajax game, reminded me of his form for Liverpool towards the end of his time there.
 

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