Serie A 2021-22 (36 Viewers)

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Strickland

Senior Member
May 17, 2019
5,859
No debate there, data science + mountains of money kills entertainment and general image in sports. Same is happening in NBA.

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That is in all comps, yes? I’m hoping we have our 35-40 goal scorer. I hope he averages 25-30 league goals/season plus another 10 between domestic cups and CL.

If he scores at Harry Kane’s level, that’s good. It will have been a good transfer. I want it to be a great transfer, for him to become an all-time great.

Do you have an issue with me hoping Vlahovic doesn’t just become good, but instead an all-time great? Shouldn’t that be what all Juve fans hope for?
Cool, that's all I wanted to clarify. I was under the impression you'd consider it horrible (the scared smiley), but phew, we're all still sane here.
 

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Strickland

Senior Member
May 17, 2019
5,859
So what do you think is the best possible result for us in the Milan Derby?

I'm thinking an Inter win so we can catch Milan as Scudetto is long gone I'm afraid.
I'm usually terribly optimistic, so I'd wait until the next international break until end of March to see where we stand then. Right now we have no reason whatsoever to speak about the Scudetto race, we're not in it, but I wouldn't give up all hope that we can't get back in it. If in the next 7 games we manage to cut the gap to 6-8 points, we can start to think about a late push.
 

juve123

Senior Member
Aug 10, 2017
16,651
I'm usually terribly optimistic, so I'd wait until the next international break until end of March to see where we stand then. Right now we have no reason whatsoever to speak about the Scudetto race, we're not in it, but I wouldn't give up all hope that we can't get back in it. If in the next 7 games we manage to cut the gap to 6-8 points, we can start to think about a late push.
Inter play milan and napoli next so if any slip up has to happen it has to be in the next two games but we need to go on a winning run also depends how quickly Vlahovic and Zakaria gel into the team.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
On this whole generational topic. I'm wary of sweeping judgments about quality of football declining. Because what exactly does that mean?

If we are talking subjective entertainment value. I am on that train too. I used to watch football obsessively from mid 90s up to around mid 2010s. I just no longer enjoy the type of football and the kind of personalities footballers are today anymore. But i really think thats more reflective of generational differences rather than quality. My dad and uncles used to say the same thing comparing football in the 80's to the one in the 90's, and probably this generation will do the same to those watching football post 2030 or whatever.

I find it hard to believe football has really been declining though. Because i hear things like oh its much easier to score nowadays because the quality of defending has become worse. But how does that manifest itself? to continue the Batistuta - Kane debate. Were there more goals scored in the world cups Batistuta played in? o rthe CL seasons, or Serie A seasons compared to the World Cups, CL's and EPL seasons Kane played in? If there was a significant difference, then i guess you could say Kane scored a comparable number of goals when it was actually easier to score. But there is not much difference at all. Because presumably if it was more difficult to score in Batistuta's era, we should be seeing less goals scored in those years.

Kane scored 5 goals in the first WC he played in, that's as high as Batistuta;s highest world cup. He has a comparable goal scoring record playing for a team whose average position was comparable to the teams Batistuta played in. Both were playing in the richest, toughest and best league in the world at their respective times. Kane has a superior record at the continental level too. His scoring record in the CL is amazing.
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
70,825
On this whole generational topic. I'm wary of sweeping judgments about quality of football declining. Because what exactly does that mean?

If we are talking subjective entertainment value. I am on that train too. I used to watch football obsessively from mid 90s up to around mid 2010s. I just no longer enjoy the type of football and the kind of personalities footballers are today anymore. But i really think thats more reflective of generational differences rather than quality. My dad and uncles used to say the same thing comparing football in the 80's to the one in the 90's, and probably this generation will do the same to those watching football post 2030 or whatever.

I find it hard to believe football has really been declining though. Because i hear things like oh its much easier to score nowadays because the quality of defending has become worse. But how does that manifest itself? to continue the Batistuta - Kane debate. Were there more goals scored in the world cups Batistuta played in? o rthe CL seasons, or Serie A seasons compared to the World Cups, CL's and EPL seasons Kane played in? If there was a significant difference, then i guess you could say Kane scored a comparable number of goals when it was actually easier to score. But there is not much difference at all. Because presumably if it was more difficult to score in Batistuta's era, we should be seeing less goals scored in those years.

Kane scored 5 goals in the first WC he played in, that's as high as Batistuta;s highest world cup. He has a comparable goal scoring record playing for a team whose average position was comparable to the teams Batistuta played in. Both were playing in the richest, toughest and best league in the world at their respective times. Kane has a superior record at the continental level too. His scoring record in the CL is amazing.
Easy, batistuta can't even walk right now, literally, kane would not last half a season in that era imo attacking players are a lot more protected be it with harsher penalties for offenders or video evidence. You are also missing a huge detail and that is the 3 point system which was only introduced in the 90s before that a tie was much more desirable so less imcentive to attack.
 
Aug 2, 2005
4,420
Again, objective facts:
1. More people play the sport -> more competition -> higher level
2. The sport is more lucrative than ever -> more competition on all levels (players, coaches, support staff, etc) -> higher level
3. Improvements in sports medical science -> overall improvements in speed, stamina, strength, less players have to retire due to injuries, increased longetivity -> higher level
4. Improvement in sports data science -> players make better informed decisions, coaches make better informed decision, more effective talent identification -> higher level

That's the increase, I don't want to write an essay about it, but if you think long enough, you can double or triple this list with things that have improved compared to 20 or 70 years ago. So objectively the level has improved.

The data aspect of it might have cost something when it comes to entertainment. The money aspect might have cost a lot when it comes to the image of the sport, so obviously there's a lot not to like about it and I get sentiments such as "football was better in the xx'ies", meaning football was more entertaining or footballers and club owners were more likable. However I see no reasons to think that the competitiveness and the general level of the sport itself is lower than in the 90ties. Why the fuck would it be? It's like thinking formula 1 cars of the 50ties could run laps around the modern cars, of course they couldn't.
Football is in an industry vs. Game/fun/aspiration/motivation of the old days.

Technology made this shift easy considering that Football is the #1 sport globally and money involved and propaganda that can be used from football.

Oldie like me prefer old time football/players cause it still had the pureness and passion about it..

Still,, agree that someone who watched the 70s football would say same about 90s from pureness and passion point of view,, but not on the level of football where it was still about fun.

Also.. the 2000s and beyond generation is less into football in general as their fav. Leisure time vs PS and Pubji or Pubgi game.

I see kids now even struggling to find 4 other kids who may want to play football together..
In my days... just bring the ball into to street/playgroud and at least 10+ other kids will be there

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Stevie

..........
Mar 30, 2003
20,833
I'm glad you settled that.
I'm probably older than you though and maybe even have been watching football longer :rolleyes2:
33 and been a Juve supporter since 95/96. Watching football from maybe 94 but I don't remember much before 96. Still long enough to have an opinion. The passion and skill level has dropped dramatically in favour of money and athleticism. Thats a fact and there is no arguing it.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,499
I get the romanticism. I miss the days we had #10s honestly. The game has become a lot more physical.
But honestly I think this is pure nostalgia. You can say Batistuta is better striker, but you make it sound like they are levels apart, and they aren't. In what way was Batistuta so superior to Kane they can't be compared?
Yep, its alot of hyperbole, Kane is supreme World class striker who has consistently scoring top numbers and won multiple top scorer titles in EPL, the hardest league. Even has calendar years were he had 56 goals.


If someone wanna dismiss him because he has been loyal to Spurs, middling half ambitious side that has been in CL final, its a weird bone to pick with him, when the comparison is with Batigol. A legend who has spent 99% of his career in a small and insignificant Fiorentina.
 
Jun 6, 2015
11,391
33 and been a Juve supporter since 95/96. Watching football from maybe 94 but I don't remember much before 96. Still long enough to have an opinion. The passion and skill level has dropped dramatically in favour of money and athleticism. Thats a fact and there is no arguing it.
Some solid arguments there. The fact thing really won me over.
 

Strickland

Senior Member
May 17, 2019
5,859
I dont think tricks necessarily equal skill. There really arent any top forwards with the trick arsenal of original Ronaldo or Ronaldinho, but obviously the world is full of trick masters, its just a thing that became obsolete in elite footie like long distance shots. Its not that players are worse at striking the ball, we just now know its a low value action compared to 90ties and 00ties.
 

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
Easy, batistuta can't even walk right now, literally, kane would not last half a season in that era imo attacking players are a lot more protected be it with harsher penalties for offenders or video evidence. You are also missing a huge detail and that is the 3 point system which was only introduced in the 90s before that a tie was much more desirable so less imcentive to attack.
Yes but the 3 points for a win argument doesnt apply to the Batistuta - Kane argument. It was the same in most of Batistuta's time.

With regards to players being more protected, i think anecdotally that seems to be true, not only for us watching, but players mention it often too. But I am not sure how much that has really impacted the game in terms of ease of scoring. Yes, its nicer for attacking players nowadays that there is a constant push thats still going on to stamp out violent tackles(which IMO is a good thing tbh). But is the implication that its easier to score? When did this shift happen, because presumably we should be seeing an uplift in teams propensity to score goals in top tournaments compared to the era footballers were not as protected. Again, i am talking primarily about the era we watched football, so the mid 90s onwards.

I really dislike comparing players across eras generally to be honest. There are always going to be differences across eras, but i think that difference manifests itself more in styles of football rather than actual quality. I am a huge fan of #10s, and second strikers(between a 10 and a striker ala Del Piero). They don't exist anymore unfortunately. Loved the time when you had Aimar's, Riquelmes, Bergkamp's, Baggios etc. Then you'd have technical geniuses playing for smaller teams like Hagi for Romania and Galatasaray or Micoud at Bremen. Do not for one second think i don't prefer that era over this one. But i really think its style, not quality.

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I dont think tricks necessarily equal skill. There really arent any top forwards with the trick arsenal of original Ronaldo or Ronaldinho, but obviously the world is full of trick masters, its just a thing that became obsolete in elite footie like long distance shots. Its not that players are worse at striking the ball, we just now know its a low value action compared to 90ties and 00ties.
Yup same as crossing. Even English teams stamped it out of their games significantly. How many English teams do you see have wingers who hug the touchline and put in crosses all game long?
Statistical analysis, data science and the introduction of metrics such as Xg are showing teams the kind of actions that are proven to be of low value, or at least statistically less likely to result in scoring opportunties or other favorable outcomes.
As teams all over get access to the same kind of data, you start to see a lot more convergence in styles. Which obviously for us we remember a time when you'd watch an English team and recognize the style, watch an Italian, Spanish, or Portugese team and be able to point to real differences in style. That;s no longer the case, i guess you could say football has lost a lot of its spontaneity. I can't think of any reason to watch a team thats not world class these days. I remember a time though when I'd try to catch Galatasaray for Hagi, Valencia for Aimar, Bremen for Micoud, even Chelsea for Zola.
 
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