Sebastian Giovinco (32 Viewers)
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Wait... are you being serious here mang?
In 2008 he played the large majority of games as an LM in a flat 4 midfield. Ranieri "the chameleon" was very inflexible. Drifted out wide? I friggin hope so - one of his primary roles was to provide width! That's like saying "damn that Chiellini, he keeps clogging up the middle", or something like that.
2 goals and 6 assists in 19 games in 2008/09, 10 of those games he came on as a sub. His delivery into the box is one of his major strengths! It's been on display time and again, including that sweet little ball into Christmas a couple games back. In 08/09 also had a goal in 3 cup games, and 2 assists in 4 CL matches (2 subs). Suns has posted his Goals + Assists ratios for that season multiple times, they're fairly solid all things considered... and that's playing with zero continuity, primarily as a wide LM under Ranieri. A position that doesn't suit him at all! He shouldn't be providing cover for left backs, period!
Let's not try to find excuses for Molinaro's issues
Yes, he does get muscled off the ball, but he's a lot stronger now than he used to be. He's strong enough, and intelligent enough to play inside as an SS now, imo he definitely wasn't the last time he was at the club. Just look at pictures of him in 2008, versus those from 2012, you'll easily see that he's spent some time in the gym, working on his lower body strength.
Also, anybody who counts his performances from the following year, when he/we had ZERO continuity under Ferrara/Zach, who employed 3-4 different formations, and basically showed zero confidence in him... especially Zach, who gave him nothing... Well c'mon. Plus, I remember he missed time with injury. Who would succeed in that situation?
One of the two worst seasons in the clubs 115 year history, pretty tough situation to succeed in.
Who knows if he'll be a success at Juve, if he has the quality, mettle and mentality to succeed at a big club - that's yet to be proven. My opinion is that based upon our spending to date, and our current needs, he comes at a price point that would be silly to refuse.
But these arguments based upon his previous time in Bianconero are as myopic as the "Fewer Pirates = an increase in Global Warming," or "Obama is responsible for the 2008 recession"... this is Glenn Beck type of logic, here.
This is a different Juventus, and this is a different player.
In 2008 he played the large majority of games as an LM in a flat 4 midfield. Ranieri "the chameleon" was very inflexible. Drifted out wide? I friggin hope so - one of his primary roles was to provide width! That's like saying "damn that Chiellini, he keeps clogging up the middle", or something like that.
2 goals and 6 assists in 19 games in 2008/09, 10 of those games he came on as a sub. His delivery into the box is one of his major strengths! It's been on display time and again, including that sweet little ball into Christmas a couple games back. In 08/09 also had a goal in 3 cup games, and 2 assists in 4 CL matches (2 subs). Suns has posted his Goals + Assists ratios for that season multiple times, they're fairly solid all things considered... and that's playing with zero continuity, primarily as a wide LM under Ranieri. A position that doesn't suit him at all! He shouldn't be providing cover for left backs, period!
Let's not try to find excuses for Molinaro's issues
Yes, he does get muscled off the ball, but he's a lot stronger now than he used to be. He's strong enough, and intelligent enough to play inside as an SS now, imo he definitely wasn't the last time he was at the club. Just look at pictures of him in 2008, versus those from 2012, you'll easily see that he's spent some time in the gym, working on his lower body strength.
Also, anybody who counts his performances from the following year, when he/we had ZERO continuity under Ferrara/Zach, who employed 3-4 different formations, and basically showed zero confidence in him... especially Zach, who gave him nothing... Well c'mon. Plus, I remember he missed time with injury. Who would succeed in that situation?
One of the two worst seasons in the clubs 115 year history, pretty tough situation to succeed in.
Who knows if he'll be a success at Juve, if he has the quality, mettle and mentality to succeed at a big club - that's yet to be proven. My opinion is that based upon our spending to date, and our current needs, he comes at a price point that would be silly to refuse.
But these arguments based upon his previous time in Bianconero are as myopic as the "Fewer Pirates = an increase in Global Warming," or "Obama is responsible for the 2008 recession"... this is Glenn Beck type of logic, here.
This is a different Juventus, and this is a different player.
AT juve he not good enough to play regularly, even juve at the time was one of the weakest in many years. Fact is he was not good enough to be a regular starter. should he have played instead of del piero? Should we have played with gio and del piero at the same time? i dont think so.
ppl should be sceptical about how gio would play at a top club. There is less space to run bc small teams have 10 men behind the ball. He is weak even if he has become stronger.
his stats from this year should be looked at also with a critical view. He played 3000 min. of serie a football, thats alot. Almost the same as buffon this year.
he took all the penalties which of course lead to him scoring more goals. 15 looks alot better than 11.
he took all the corners which lead to more assists
he took all the freekicks which lead to more goals and assists.
oh nooo... you are grasping at straws! He was so good we had to let him go before - he needed CL. He was unappreciated because he played just under 3 coaches here, not 5-6... Plus they were all so clueless they knew nothing about football of course.
Lets just mention the names of Eto, Zlatan, Zidane
and Messi ... here - 4 good reasons why Giovinco is so damn good. Well, we might miss a fact or two (for example Messi was having 100+ appearances for barca at the said time), but its all details : The important thing is they are alike, because I couldn't tell (couldn't I? is it true? - scratch that, its unimportant, moreover that random guy just logged in so he can write this =>must be true) that they are world class too. Zlatan, Eto, Zidane and Messi have one thing in common apparently - Giovinco.
Add the name of Tim Sherwood (for no good reason) and make your argument undestructable.Also 'strength' is not important in football these days. ... if you are playing it on the playstation, of course...
Exactly. 100% true. But apart from the fact that Giovinco disappears from view (can hide himself between ones legs ) and the defender is ... well lets say he isn't a full back and he isn't a very good CB either. If his positioning is what you would expect from players we are hoping Giovinco to give us the cutting edge against = forget it.
PS: Let's not forget either that the said defender had 50+ more minutes in his legs...
) and the defender is ... well lets say he isn't a full back and he isn't a very good CB either. If his positioning is what you would expect from players we are hoping Giovinco to give us the cutting edge against = forget it.PS: Let's not forget either that the said defender had 50+ more minutes in his legs...
I don't think either player could do anything else, but I do think Giovinco is bigger now than when he was with us.
crap player
You act like I'm saying build the team around Giovinco. We're talking about adding a guy for between 6.5-10M dollars (once you subtract out the 3.5M loan fee they initially paid us), who could provide SOLID DEPTH - with potential for more. Is it so hard to understand that? No one is asking this guy to be the messiah, the new Ale, or anything close to that. If he costs too much, etc., we'll go another direction.
Giovinco wasn't even playing in Del Piero's position in 2008/09, man. The whole point is that he was playing LM in 4 man midfield, which he's not suited to. No, he wasn't as good as NEDVED in that role, but he was still pretty decent in limited time. If you want to look at the following year with Ciro and fucking Zach as a reference point, that's fine. I tried to explain why that's not a good idea in that previous post you quoted, but if you want to pretend that's a good reference point, well, as I stated, to me that's shitty logic.
Nearly everybody is skeptical about how he will perform at a top club. I wrote that he could flop, that he might not come good. The point is that if you give him a shot, in the event that he does come good you've enhanced the team for a good price.
I personally like the way you talk about how weak he is physically, and then condemn him for having played a shit load of minutes to get his stats - that just makes me laugh, man. Yeah, he's small. We get it. Guess what? He's also pretty well conditioned - it's proven in your post - just look at all those minutes. So thanks for that. There are quality football players who are small - don't think I need to spend much time on that.
Finally, who cares if he took all the set pieces, and got some assists off corners, and PK goals, etc. That's a fucking asset for Juventus, MAN! Wake up! It's good to have more players on the pitch who can effectively take those - it's a specific skill set that not all players have! In the past, we've been in positions on the field where fucking Grosso has even taken set pieces, for chrissakes.
He's not being brought here as the messiah, to replace Del Piero, etc. We're not going to "build the team" around him, or any such nonsense. He's coming as another good offensive player, who will join a TEAM atmosphere, add a skill set we're currently short of, and provide depth.
If he underperforms, moans, acts out, etc., Conte and Marrotta will deal with it. Even if we need to sell him in a year or two, if we pay an amount near to what is rumored, we won't be losing much money on the player.
Giovinco wasn't even playing in Del Piero's position in 2008/09, man. The whole point is that he was playing LM in 4 man midfield, which he's not suited to. No, he wasn't as good as NEDVED in that role, but he was still pretty decent in limited time. If you want to look at the following year with Ciro and fucking Zach as a reference point, that's fine. I tried to explain why that's not a good idea in that previous post you quoted, but if you want to pretend that's a good reference point, well, as I stated, to me that's shitty logic.
Nearly everybody is skeptical about how he will perform at a top club. I wrote that he could flop, that he might not come good. The point is that if you give him a shot, in the event that he does come good you've enhanced the team for a good price.
I personally like the way you talk about how weak he is physically, and then condemn him for having played a shit load of minutes to get his stats - that just makes me laugh, man. Yeah, he's small. We get it. Guess what? He's also pretty well conditioned - it's proven in your post - just look at all those minutes. So thanks for that. There are quality football players who are small - don't think I need to spend much time on that.
Finally, who cares if he took all the set pieces, and got some assists off corners, and PK goals, etc. That's a fucking asset for Juventus, MAN! Wake up! It's good to have more players on the pitch who can effectively take those - it's a specific skill set that not all players have! In the past, we've been in positions on the field where fucking Grosso has even taken set pieces, for chrissakes.
He's not being brought here as the messiah, to replace Del Piero, etc. We're not going to "build the team" around him, or any such nonsense. He's coming as another good offensive player, who will join a TEAM atmosphere, add a skill set we're currently short of, and provide depth.
If he underperforms, moans, acts out, etc., Conte and Marrotta will deal with it. Even if we need to sell him in a year or two, if we pay an amount near to what is rumored, we won't be losing much money on the player.
Wai... Aren't we going to get the same amount back if he gets sold? Is Giovinco looking for a sub role at all?
Why wasn't he playing DP position? Because all those coaches were so stupid they couldn't see he was an SS and not an LM? Why didn't they try him as a CB - some said strength isn't important these days anyway? When you are talking about good as nedved - that is certain - but Nedved @ 37...
I am like most it seems.
---------- Post added 16.06.2012 at 21:01 ----------
Do you have any objective measurement of their speed or you don't?
Do football clubs use the FM database or they don't?
Do you work in a football club or you don't?
Do you think you have more knowledge or resources than those scouting systems or you don't?
You can enlighten ME about that - wiser one.
Why wasn't he playing DP position? Because all those coaches were so stupid they couldn't see he was an SS and not an LM? Why didn't they try him as a CB - some said strength isn't important these days anyway? When you are talking about good as nedved - that is certain - but Nedved @ 37...
I am like most it seems.
---------- Post added 16.06.2012 at 21:01 ----------
Did I, or did I not see you using friggin' FM stats to rate a Croatian player, and then also manage to criticize Giovinco for drawing a foul/card?
Please, enlighten us some more, oh wise one.
---------- Post added 16.06.2012 at 11:53 ----------
Please, enlighten us some more, oh wise one.
---------- Post added 16.06.2012 at 11:53 ----------
Do football clubs use the FM database or they don't?
Do you work in a football club or you don't?
Do you think you have more knowledge or resources than those scouting systems or you don't?
You can enlighten ME about that - wiser one.
just want to comment about a few of your "points"
ppl bring up his stats as a reason to bring him back. But considering he played almost all matches and took all the set pieces they might infact not be as good as they look at first glance.
At any given time you only need one player to take freekicks , corners and penalties. He will not take many at juve, as we have the best in pirlo. No use having 3-4 players who are good at set pieces on the pitch at the same time.
parma have said juve need to pay his value to get him back, and they value him very high. I dont see way you think we will get him "cheap". parma have talked about him valued at 30-40m.
He can be physically weak compared to other players. and still play many matches. his hight and weight oviously plays a big role in that. it doesnt matter if he is 60kg of pure muscle, he still will get pushed of the ball by players 20-30 kg heavier. ok... you might be right about him spending time in the gym. according this site he is the strongest human ever: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/104336/sebastian-giovinco?cc=5739
time will tell whos right, i will remain sceptical for now
ppl bring up his stats as a reason to bring him back. But considering he played almost all matches and took all the set pieces they might infact not be as good as they look at first glance.
At any given time you only need one player to take freekicks , corners and penalties. He will not take many at juve, as we have the best in pirlo. No use having 3-4 players who are good at set pieces on the pitch at the same time.
parma have said juve need to pay his value to get him back, and they value him very high. I dont see way you think we will get him "cheap". parma have talked about him valued at 30-40m.
He can be physically weak compared to other players. and still play many matches. his hight and weight oviously plays a big role in that. it doesnt matter if he is 60kg of pure muscle, he still will get pushed of the ball by players 20-30 kg heavier. ok... you might be right about him spending time in the gym. according this site he is the strongest human ever: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/104336/sebastian-giovinco?cc=5739
time will tell whos right, i will remain sceptical for now
I don't want to be a dick, so I'm thinking the best thing to do is just walk away from this conversation - I've got some work to do anyway. You've ignored 80% of the previous post, which is fine, but there's nothing here that's really worth replying to.
I did read an article today where Giovinco's agent said today that he's not looking for a guaranteed starting role.
If you want to defend the previous coaches, that's your choice. The results, and circumstances are what they were.
Well maybe one more thing.
No, I don't work for a football club.
But for your sake, I sure as shit hope you don't honestly believe that teams spend millions of dollars sending scouts to watch players live, phoning around to talk to professional contacts who know the player, occasionally visiting with family & maybe even some friends (occasionally happens with young players, to gauge maturity/how they act in social settings) watching countless hours of video, etc., and then just log on to FM and think "oh man, this guy's only rated an 11/20 in speed, on FM? I guess I shouldn't buy him then."
I did read an article today where Giovinco's agent said today that he's not looking for a guaranteed starting role.
If you want to defend the previous coaches, that's your choice. The results, and circumstances are what they were.
Well maybe one more thing.
No, I don't work for a football club.
But for your sake, I sure as shit hope you don't honestly believe that teams spend millions of dollars sending scouts to watch players live, phoning around to talk to professional contacts who know the player, occasionally visiting with family & maybe even some friends (occasionally happens with young players, to gauge maturity/how they act in social settings) watching countless hours of video, etc., and then just log on to FM and think "oh man, this guy's only rated an 11/20 in speed, on FM? I guess I shouldn't buy him then."