Russia - Ukraine Conflict 2022 (53 Viewers)

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,680
Neither will this be, nor it will be cheap. That's why is hilarious people think those are donations for free, how they present it
What is your point? That US is taking advantage of the current situation? That they are the bad guys here? They are running a proxy war? Even if it isnt donation, eventhough it is implied to be but whatever makes you feel better, they have offered tremendous help so far without which Ukraine wouldnt be able to defend itself. For the time being thats all it matters.
 

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kappa96

Senior Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,902
What is your point? That US is taking advantage of the current situation? That they are the bad guys here? They are running a proxy war? Even if it isnt donation, eventhough it is implied to be but whatever makes you feel better, they have offered tremendous help so far without which Ukraine wouldnt be able to defend itself. For the time being thats all it matters.
You have to be mighty stupid to blame the USA in a Ukraine - rusia war.
 

Dostoevsky

Tzu
Administrator
May 27, 2007
88,444
Even if that's the case, it still allows them to survive and fight back. I don't see how doing nothing instead is the preferable.


You highlighted the UK loan paid off in 2006, it was $3.75 billion at 2%, generous at the time. They ended up paying a total of $7.5 billion over 59 YEARS. That comes out to $127 million per year, which is quite "cheap." How is this the doomsday scenario you are trying to present?
How much did the US send so far? I read it's ~110 billion euros in one year time. I doubt it will stop any time soon so yeah, I really wonder how "cheap" that donation will turn out to be in the end.
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
29,686
How much did the US send so far? I read it's ~110 billion euros in one year time. I doubt it will stop any time soon so yeah, I really wonder how "cheap" that donation will turn out to be in the end.
Over a term like 59 years any amount will be cheap. I'm not really understanding what you're trying to get at though.
 

Dostoevsky

Tzu
Administrator
May 27, 2007
88,444
Over a term like 59 years any amount will be cheap. I'm not really understanding what you're trying to get at though.
I'm just saying that Ukraine is devastated and will get even worse. They will lose the areas which Russians claimed already. I assume over 200k Ukrainians are dead. I can't possibly be happy about this continuing because it can only get worse. Same goes to finance because that amount is crazy and is not a gift.
 
Apr 12, 2004
77,165
We have operated at a deficit for 40 years, we print money, bro, we don't care. I don't think Ukraine will be as hamstrung by the funds as you think, but that's just me.

I don't know if we have given that much, Strickland posted that stat which showed we've given 27 billion.


Here, @Dostoevsky

Exactly one year ago today, Russian tanks rolled across Ukrainian borders, setting off the largest armed conflict since World War II.
Repercussions from the war have impacted people from Illinois to Islamabad, straining economies and reshaping political agendas. While combat continues in eastern Ukraine, let’s look back on how the Russian–Ukraine war has changed the world over the past year.
The human toll
  • At least 7,199 Ukrainian civilians have died, more than 11,000 have been injured (both figures are the latest UN estimate and are likely a major undercount), and as many as 100,000 of its soldiers have died or sustained injuries.
  • Russian military casualties are believed to be approaching 200,000, per US officials.
More than 8 million Ukrainian refugees (~20% of the country's prewar population) have fled to other European countries. Hundreds of thousands of Russians also left home.
Economic losses
  • The war has cost Ukraine hundreds of billions of dollars in damaged infrastructure and caused its GDP to plummet by 30% in 2022.
  • Russia’s output contracted by just over 2%, surprising many economists who believed a meltdown was imminent.
But economist Sergei Guriev cautions against using GDP to measure the performance of a wartime economy since military expenditures can distort the big picture. He says Russia’s economy is worse off than it seems, and points to a significant decline in Russia’s consumer spending and a higher-than-expected increase in its government’s budget deficit.
Shifting global trade
Russians now have to shop abroad to snag a Big Mac or a pair of Levi’s jeans. Over 1,000 multinationals, including Microsoft and Nike, said they’d limit their operations within Russia’s borders or leave altogether in the first months of the war, according to a group of Yale researchers led by management professor Jeffrey Sonnenfeld.
Sonnenfeld says that the corporate exodus from Russia is six times bigger than the one during the apartheid era in South Africa, which at the time—1988—was the largest in history.
But most damaging to the Russian economy has been the action of governments abroad. Due to its invasion of Ukraine, Russia is now the most sanctioned country in the world, with restrictions on its energy exports, strategic imports, and access to the global financial system.
And the EU, which at times relied on Russia for almost half of its natural gas imports, has cut those levels to less than 10%, according to Axios.
Zoom out: The biggest international conflict since World War II has spurred many countries to reconsider their approach to national defense. Notably, Germany and Japan appear to have abandoned their customary pacifism by promising to ramp up their military spending, and the US is increasing its arms stockpiles.—SK

https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/2023/02/23/the-war-in-ukraine-1-year-on?cid=30645048.2490817&mid=5b561f25eb1f6eb291c4f5354f33b15c&utm_campaign=mb&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=morning_brew
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
29,686
I'm just saying that Ukraine is devastated and will get even worse. They will lose the areas which Russians claimed already. I assume over 200k Ukrainians are dead. I can't possibly be happy about this continuing because it can only get worse. Same goes to finance because that amount is crazy and is not a gift.
The first is true, the second is a maybe, the third is probably a lot less. No one is happy about it, but unfortunately none of this can be taken back, we can't go back to before the war started. You have to play with the cards that you're dealt, and so far Ukraine has been doing exceptionally well. The bottom line is, if the aid is free then great since as seen above, I'm general we as a nation blow so much more money than that all the time on dumb shit that doesn't even matter. If it is a loan, the terms will be extremely favorable and much preferable to annexation and Russian rule.

There isn't some sinister goal to bankrupt Ukraine.
 

Elvin

Senior Member
Nov 25, 2005
36,854
I didn't say that.

I just said there's a reason the US are doing this.

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I can agree with the child soldiers, but I really wouldn't be so quick to assume Bolivia did not provide cocaine.

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Realistically the only countries that would not condemn Russia are countries that believe they can expand their own territory or countries that depend on Russia for economic or political reasons. Territorial integrity is sacrosanct.
Or countries ruled by an autocrat.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,923
I'm just saying that Ukraine is devastated and will get even worse. They will lose the areas which Russians claimed already. I assume over 200k Ukrainians are dead. I can't possibly be happy about this continuing because it can only get worse. Same goes to finance because that amount is crazy and is not a gift.
Dude, every single one of your posts in this thread is Russia apologist, NATO blaming, Ukraine should just give up, Ukraine is going to lose.

Only Ukraine gets to decide when they want to negotiate and cede territory. They already took a large swath of territory back from the Russians and dependent on what armaments and how soon NATO supplies them, it’s not unreasonable to think they could push the front line back to a similar place as pre-war.

Maybe stop with the “Ukraine should just give all the territory to Russia and concede to whatever demands they want” and allow that it is up to them, and that they are still fighting hard for their territory and their sovereignty. At the start of the war you going on all doomsday about Russia would conquer Ukraine entirely in a few weeks. We all know you love Russia and Russian culture, but that doesn’t excuse this shit.

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Yea, sorry we have twice as many aircraft carriers as the rest of the world combined.
Other countries have dinky little shit aircrafts carriers. One US carrier group could easily wipe every other nations’ aircraft carriers off the map.
 
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Apr 12, 2004
77,165
Any news from @Kopanja ?


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Has not been on since 17.01.23

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Dude, every single one of your posts in this thread is Russia apologist, NATO blaming, Ukraine should just give up, Ukraine is going to lose.

Only Ukraine gets to decide when they want to negotiate and cede territory. They already took a large swath of territory back from the Russians and dependent on what armaments and how soon NATO supplies them, it’s not unreasonable to think they could push the front line back to a similar place as pre-war.

Maybe stop with the “Ukraine should just give all the territory to Russia and concede to whatever demands they want” and allow that it is up to them, and that they are still fighting hard for their territory and their sovereignty. At the start of the war you going on all doomsday about Russia would conquer Ukraine entirely in a few weeks. We all know you love Russia and Russian culture, but that doesn’t excuse this shit.
He's a fellow Slav, maybe he's an undercover agent!
 
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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,235
Dude, every single one of your posts in this thread is Russia apologist, NATO blaming, Ukraine should just give up, Ukraine is going to lose.

Only Ukraine gets to decide when they want to negotiate and cede territory. They already took a large swath of territory back from the Russians and dependent on what armaments and how soon NATO supplies them, it’s not unreasonable to think they could push the front line back to a similar place as pre-war.

Maybe stop with the “Ukraine should just give all the territory to Russia and concede to whatever demands they want” and allow that it is up to them, and that they are still fighting hard for their territory and their sovereignty. At the start of the war you going on all doomsday about Russia would conquer Ukraine entirely in a few weeks. We all know you love Russia and Russian culture, but that doesn’t excuse this shit.

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Other countries have dinky little shit aircrafts carriers. One US carrier group could easily wipe every other nations’ aircraft carriers off the map.
I think he's mostly just fatalistic.

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Dostoevsky

Tzu
Administrator
May 27, 2007
88,444
We have operated at a deficit for 40 years, we print money, bro, we don't care. I don't think Ukraine will be as hamstrung by the funds as you think, but that's just me.

I don't know if we have given that much, Strickland posted that stat which showed we've given 27 billion.


Here, @Dostoevsky

Exactly one year ago today, Russian tanks rolled across Ukrainian borders, setting off the largest armed conflict since World War II.
Repercussions from the war have impacted people from Illinois to Islamabad, straining economies and reshaping political agendas. While combat continues in eastern Ukraine, let’s look back on how the Russian–Ukraine war has changed the world over the past year.
The human toll
  • At least 7,199 Ukrainian civilians have died, more than 11,000 have been injured (both figures are the latest UN estimate and are likely a major undercount), and as many as 100,000 of its soldiers have died or sustained injuries.
  • Russian military casualties are believed to be approaching 200,000, per US officials.
More than 8 million Ukrainian refugees (~20% of the country's prewar population) have fled to other European countries. Hundreds of thousands of Russians also left home.
Economic losses
  • The war has cost Ukraine hundreds of billions of dollars in damaged infrastructure and caused its GDP to plummet by 30% in 2022.
  • Russia’s output contracted by just over 2%, surprising many economists who believed a meltdown was imminent.
But economist Sergei Guriev cautions against using GDP to measure the performance of a wartime economy since military expenditures can distort the big picture. He says Russia’s economy is worse off than it seems, and points to a significant decline in Russia’s consumer spending and a higher-than-expected increase in its government’s budget deficit.
Shifting global trade
Russians now have to shop abroad to snag a Big Mac or a pair of Levi’s jeans. Over 1,000 multinationals, including Microsoft and Nike, said they’d limit their operations within Russia’s borders or leave altogether in the first months of the war, according to a group of Yale researchers led by management professor Jeffrey Sonnenfeld.
Sonnenfeld says that the corporate exodus from Russia is six times bigger than the one during the apartheid era in South Africa, which at the time—1988—was the largest in history.
But most damaging to the Russian economy has been the action of governments abroad. Due to its invasion of Ukraine, Russia is now the most sanctioned country in the world, with restrictions on its energy exports, strategic imports, and access to the global financial system.
And the EU, which at times relied on Russia for almost half of its natural gas imports, has cut those levels to less than 10%, according to Axios.
Zoom out: The biggest international conflict since World War II has spurred many countries to reconsider their approach to national defense. Notably, Germany and Japan appear to have abandoned their customary pacifism by promising to ramp up their military spending, and the US is increasing its arms stockpiles.—SK

https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/2023/02/23/the-war-in-ukraine-1-year-on?cid=30645048.2490817&mid=5b561f25eb1f6eb291c4f5354f33b15c&utm_campaign=mb&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=morning_brew
I might be giving wrong numbers but bro you must be crazy to believe it's 27 billion. Just recently some of your politicians said you'll soon send out another 10 billion in just one batch.

https://www.crfb.org/blogs/congress-approved-113-billion-aid-ukraine-2022

This source might be shit, dunno, but I've seen it on a couple of places that figures are 100 billion and more.

Kinda sucks to talk about the count of dead bodies. We'll know that once this ends. However, I did read some report of 17k graves of Ukrainians in one area. So they were doing statistics based on another 23 areas and predictions are that there are around 200-250k dead Ukrainians already. Either way, you won't find any truth on both sides there as both have common interest to lie when it comes to figures, both have interest to present their win, to boost up their moral. But imo it wouldn't surprise me if total dead count is 500k at the moment.
 

Dostoevsky

Tzu
Administrator
May 27, 2007
88,444
The first is true, the second is a maybe, the third is probably a lot less. No one is happy about it, but unfortunately none of this can be taken back, we can't go back to before the war started. You have to play with the cards that you're dealt, and so far Ukraine has been doing exceptionally well. The bottom line is, if the aid is free then great since as seen above, I'm general we as a nation blow so much more money than that all the time on dumb shit that doesn't even matter. If it is a loan, the terms will be extremely favorable and much preferable to annexation and Russian rule.

There isn't some sinister goal to bankrupt Ukraine.
Did I ever say that? I never though it's the US plan to destroy Ukraine.

I'm just talking about funds not being a gift, firstly, and secondly, that with a devastated country/gdp, it will be a horrible debt to pay off in the end. I'm not even meddling to say it ain't worth it, that's up to Ukrainians to decide.

It's only my opinion to think that Russia will keep both Donbas and Crimea. Do you think Ukraine will have it back? If so, then that's where we disagree. That's why I think continuation of this war will just make things worse for Ukraine.
 

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