They have only ever acted as a deterrent against large scale war between major powers. The little non-nuclear guys get fucked regardless.
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Russia - Ukraine Conflict 2022 (48 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
- Start date
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He’s full of shit on the last point about Ukraine (and NATO) offering concessions that would have prevented this in the first place. Ukraine stated multiple times they tried to reach out begin diplomantic negotiations over the weeks before this began. Multiple countries tried to set up negotiations and summits over Ukraine with Putin and Russia. They didn’t agree to any of them before starting their invasion. This invasion and war of conquest was always Putin’s endgame with a puppet regime to be installed. And if Ukraine had come to the table and said we shall demilitarize, Russia just rolls over them after that happens. Because that’s always been the endgame for Putin. A reformed Russian federation.
It’s just another attempt to shift blame to Ukraine and NATO for supposedly not making concessions in advance to prevent this lol
It’s just another attempt to shift blame to Ukraine and NATO for supposedly not making concessions in advance to prevent this lol
I'm not sure I agree.
Talks between the Ukrainians and the Russian have been going for months (if not years) before all this started, not weeks. Negotiations summits are just a pony show, they don't need Macron to sit between them at a table to know where each side stands.
Russian demands were uncappable to the Ukrainians (don't blame them), the Ukrainians reaching out to negotiate when in advance the Russians know they are rejecting unconditionally the core premise of Russia demands (justified or not) is not surprising.
There is a big difference between going to negotiation with pre-conditions or without. in this case both sides had pre-conditions that prevented any real negotiations.
Asserting that if Ukraine submit to Russia demands would have prevented the war is not blame shifting. it's a reasonable assumption. With that said it carries absolutely zero blame on NATO or Ukraine if done in good faith. As they are just as justified to reject those demands.
In the end it all depends on how this conflict itself ends. If Russia wins and are able to enforce all their demands then yes, those deaths could have been avoided. Does this in itself dismiss Ukraine right to fight? no at all.
Talks between the Ukrainians and the Russian have been going for months (if not years) before all this started, not weeks. Negotiations summits are just a pony show, they don't need Macron to sit between them at a table to know where each side stands.
Russian demands were uncappable to the Ukrainians (don't blame them), the Ukrainians reaching out to negotiate when in advance the Russians know they are rejecting unconditionally the core premise of Russia demands (justified or not) is not surprising.
There is a big difference between going to negotiation with pre-conditions or without. in this case both sides had pre-conditions that prevented any real negotiations.
Asserting that if Ukraine submit to Russia demands would have prevented the war is not blame shifting. it's a reasonable assumption. With that said it carries absolutely zero blame on NATO or Ukraine if done in good faith. As they are just as justified to reject those demands.
In the end it all depends on how this conflict itself ends. If Russia wins and are able to enforce all their demands then yes, those deaths could have been avoided. Does this in itself dismiss Ukraine right to fight? no at all.
An authoritarian superpower state of 150 million putting a gun to its neighbours head and saying give up all claim to these territories we took from you, give up these areas that you possess that the separatist republics we back lay claim to, and demilitarize, don’t try to join NATO or even EU… that’s not a negotiation. That’s just saying give up all rights to self-determination and become a puppet state or we invade you and make you one. No one is saying negotiations need a summit or mediator State between them, but Russia was never negotiating, they have a megalomaniac dictator at the helm who has spent his entire political career stating his endgame is to get the USSR back together again under his rule… something Ukrainians very much oppose.
Now the couple Serbs in this thread can continue to say it’s NATO’s fault for expanding and threatening Russia all they want, but NATO wasn’t threatening anyone, wasn’t attacking anyone, wasn’t demanding Ukraine join them or be sanctioned/invaded/etc. And NATO has zilch to do with Putin’s delusions of grandeur.
This is 100% on Russia. And talking about “deaths could have been avoided” is just stupid because no one had any idea beforehand how this would turn out. That Russia would actually full-scale invade and declare war on Ukraine right now. Because ya know, western media is apparently the real propaganda, not Russian, the Russians and Putin that were saying the west is lying about us planning to attack Ukraine. A Ukraine that hadn’t joined NATO and couldn’t join NATO according to the organizations own requirements. A Ukraine that pretty clearly fiercely desires to remain a sovereign democratic nation. It also entirely dismisses the historical atrocities/genocide committed by the Soviet Union and Stalinist Russia against Ukraine in the form of enforced famines that killed millions of ethnic Ukrainians, far more than any other group in Russia. Ya know events that make Ukraine have very little desire to ever be a part of Russia again.
Now the couple Serbs in this thread can continue to say it’s NATO’s fault for expanding and threatening Russia all they want, but NATO wasn’t threatening anyone, wasn’t attacking anyone, wasn’t demanding Ukraine join them or be sanctioned/invaded/etc. And NATO has zilch to do with Putin’s delusions of grandeur.
This is 100% on Russia. And talking about “deaths could have been avoided” is just stupid because no one had any idea beforehand how this would turn out. That Russia would actually full-scale invade and declare war on Ukraine right now. Because ya know, western media is apparently the real propaganda, not Russian, the Russians and Putin that were saying the west is lying about us planning to attack Ukraine. A Ukraine that hadn’t joined NATO and couldn’t join NATO according to the organizations own requirements. A Ukraine that pretty clearly fiercely desires to remain a sovereign democratic nation. It also entirely dismisses the historical atrocities/genocide committed by the Soviet Union and Stalinist Russia against Ukraine in the form of enforced famines that killed millions of ethnic Ukrainians, far more than any other group in Russia. Ya know events that make Ukraine have very little desire to ever be a part of Russia again.
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Yeah agree, I said it before here. Russian army being exposed can make them escalate measures pretty quickly. this is indeed the scary part.
I'm not sure what your are trying to say, realpolitik's aren't fair? well duh. Russians don't negotiate in good faith? who would have though
Russian demands may not be just in a just world. this world isn't one. Russia makes demands because then can.
And to the bold part, that's on you and other western governments and that's exactly where the west has failed Ukraine.
I'm not sure what your are trying to say, realpolitik's aren't fair? well duh. Russians don't negotiate in good faith? who would have though
Russian demands may not be just in a just world. this world isn't one. Russia makes demands because then can.
And to the bold part, that's on you and other western governments and that's exactly where the west has failed Ukraine.
Oh please. The west has failed Ukraine? You and the other dorks here would have an aneurysm if NATO actually got involved and defended Ukraine militarily, kicking off a major war. But sure the West has failed Ukraine by supporting them in every way short of that. This is not on anyone but Putin and the Russians. Ya know, the people invading Ukraine. What a load of bullshit. 
You just went on about Ukraine negotiating in good faith and now you talking about Russia not doing so. Then of course this led to war, and of course Russia is going to have their economy tanked to oblivion by the west and deservedly so. Ukraine doesn’t want to be a part of Russia under an authoritarian regime. So as long as Russia’s endgame was that, war was always coming, so no, deaths were not avoidable. That’s just stupid. Not to mention the fact that Russia has always killed off large numbers of people within its territories. So even if Ukraine did sign on, they’d probably see quite a large number of deaths anyways.
Lol at all the whataboutism from Nzoric, Dostoevsky, Valerio, and now you. This war is on Russia. That’s it. Pretty simple. They’re invading a democratic nation. But sure, NATO gave them no choice.
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Says the NATO bashing, Putin apologist. Lol
You just went on about Ukraine negotiating in good faith and now you talking about Russia not doing so. Then of course this led to war, and of course Russia is going to have their economy tanked to oblivion by the west and deservedly so. Ukraine doesn’t want to be a part of Russia under an authoritarian regime. So as long as Russia’s endgame was that, war was always coming, so no, deaths were not avoidable. That’s just stupid. Not to mention the fact that Russia has always killed off large numbers of people within its territories. So even if Ukraine did sign on, they’d probably see quite a large number of deaths anyways.
Lol at all the whataboutism from Nzoric, Dostoevsky, Valerio, and now you. This war is on Russia. That’s it. Pretty simple. They’re invading a democratic nation. But sure, NATO gave them no choice.
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Good, 1 person gets it 
His reply to you sums up the issue in this thread
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His reply to you sums up the issue in this thread
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Oh please. The west has failed Ukraine? You and the other dorks here would have an aneurysm if NATO actually got involved and defended Ukraine militarily, kicking off a major war. But sure the West has failed Ukraine by supporting them in every way short of that. This is not on anyone but Putin and the Russians. Ya know, the people invading Ukraine. What a load of bullshit.
You just went on about Ukraine negotiating in good faith and now you talking about Russia not doing so. Then of course this led to war, and of course Russia is going to have their economy tanked to oblivion by the west and deservedly so. Ukraine doesn’t want to be a part of Russia under an authoritarian regime. So as long as Russia’s endgame was that, war was always coming, so no, deaths were not avoidable. That’s just stupid. Not to mention the fact that Russia has always killed off large numbers of people within its territories. So even if you Ukraine did sign on, they’d probably see quite a large number of deaths anyways.
Lol at all the whataboutism from Nzoric, Dostoevsky, Valerio, and now you. This war is on Russia. That’s it. Pretty simple. They’re invading a democratic nation. But sure, NATO gave them no choice.
- - - Updated - - -
Says the NATO bashing, Putin apologist. Lol
You just went on about Ukraine negotiating in good faith and now you talking about Russia not doing so. Then of course this led to war, and of course Russia is going to have their economy tanked to oblivion by the west and deservedly so. Ukraine doesn’t want to be a part of Russia under an authoritarian regime. So as long as Russia’s endgame was that, war was always coming, so no, deaths were not avoidable. That’s just stupid. Not to mention the fact that Russia has always killed off large numbers of people within its territories. So even if you Ukraine did sign on, they’d probably see quite a large number of deaths anyways.
Lol at all the whataboutism from Nzoric, Dostoevsky, Valerio, and now you. This war is on Russia. That’s it. Pretty simple. They’re invading a democratic nation. But sure, NATO gave them no choice.
- - - Updated - - -
Says the NATO bashing, Putin apologist. Lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh please. That’s not on anyone but Putin and the Russians. Ya know, the people invading Ukraine. What a load of bullshit.
You just went on about Ukraine negotiating in good faith and now you talking about Russia not doing so. Then of course this led to war, and of course Russia is going to have their economy tanked to oblivion by the west and deservedly so.
Lol at all the whataboutism from Nzoric, Dostoevsky, Valerio, and now you. This war is on Russia. That’s it. Pretty simple. They’re invading a democratic nation. But sure, NATO gave them no choice.
You just went on about Ukraine negotiating in good faith and now you talking about Russia not doing so. Then of course this led to war, and of course Russia is going to have their economy tanked to oblivion by the west and deservedly so.
Lol at all the whataboutism from Nzoric, Dostoevsky, Valerio, and now you. This war is on Russia. That’s it. Pretty simple. They’re invading a democratic nation. But sure, NATO gave them no choice.
I will not speak on behalf of the people you mentioned, but I never claimed this is not on Russia (it obviously is). Never said they had no other option. I also didn't say Ukrainians were negotiating in good fate, I said if people claim, in good faith, that if Ukraine would have made concessions this would have been avoided is just a fact and not blame shifting.
