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Dantes

Dantes

Senior Member
#42
Dec 15, 2017
1,042
#42
@Fred In addition to my previous (not a dig, just enjoying the rivalled debate) ...


  • If I were asked how many Arsenal players I would want in the Spurs first XI - my answer would be zero. I don't think there's any that make our team better, and certainly not on the wages they'd be asking for.
  • If I were asked how many Juve players I'd want, then I'd have to think about that, I'd be weighing up other variables such as age, experience, potential to improve, mentality and intellectual maturity, confidence, tactical flexibility, adaptability to other cultures etc. It could be anywhere between 3 and 8. It's not all about mad skillz or which other big clubs they have on their CV.

I think what I'm trying to say is that Arsenal's 'better' players have very little depth to their qualities. I don't care whether Player A plays for Spain or Player B used to play for Real Madrid.

And perhaps, in that, I'm agreeing that Wenger wasn't a great manager of late - because he failed to recognise this. That personality is as important as potential. Not because he was incapable of getting the best out of the players he had, but because they are just inacapable of delivering their best with any degree of consistency, and he's to blame for signing them in the first place.
 
Seven

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
#53
Jun 25, 2003
38,185
#53
Rwanda are going to be Arsenal's shirt sponsor? As in the country of Rwanda.

Their dictator appears to be an Arsenal fan.

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Fred

Fred

Senior Member
#56
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
#56
Seven said:
It's kind of weird to be accused of not having a winner mentality and then get Emery as your coach...

If you want him, I'm sure Martinez would be available too.
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Ya, no thanks :D

Dantes said:
We could debate this all day. But as I'm a Spurs fan you already know what my default position on this will be.

What I'll say is that your definition and understanding of what makes a 'better player' is probably different to mine. If Tottenham's players are more consistent, and are winning more games over a substantial period of more than just one season, and look more like World Beaters than Arsenal's then - on an Occam's Razor take - it's plausible that the reason is quite simple. Tottenham's players are better.

Let's say for argument's sake that Ozil is a 9/10 player. But his performances are 5,6,5,4,7,5,6,9,5,4,3,6,8,3,2. And Eriksen is an 8/10 player. But his performances are 7,7,7,8,7,8,7,6,7,8,8,8,8 etc. Then I know who I'd rather have and who the better (or more useful) player is.

I'm not sure I buy into the Pochettino / Klopp were better managers (over recent years) than Wenger argument. Just as much blame (and credit) should be assigned to the players. Arsenal's just don't seem to have the right work ethic at all, and that's in their individual personalities. Juventus' players do, and that isn't all because of Allegri, a lot of it is because that's just who they are.
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I think thats what it comes down to really.

But the way I see it, we have players that are 8's for example, but they're not playing that way because of poor coaching, lack of tactics, etc. If Arsenal had a good manager that was able to get the best out of his star players, these players would show that they are better than Spurs players.

Ozil for example is a solid 8 player, and it is very relevant that he is the main playmaker of the German NT and for a period of three years one of the two best teams in the world in the past decade Real Madrid; its a proxy measure of his quality. I think if Ozil was at Tottenham, he'd probably do better than Eriksen; and if Eriksen was with us, we'd be worse off.

But by far the best example is the Trippier - Bellerin comparison. There is no doubt that Trippier has been playing better in the past couple of seasons; but there is also no doubt that Bellerin is a better player. If both players were on the market right now, teams would clamor for Bellerin and not for Trippier. Because IMO when coaches evaluate players, they do so the way I am doing right now; to divorce the two concepts of ability and current form and make a judgment from there.

Salah had a much better season than Neymar; would you say Salah is better than Neymar? If Tottenham had the choice between the two players, would you really go for Salah?



Maddy said:
Tottenham's players are better than Arsenal. Just Fred's brain isn't functioning due to ramadan.

Aubameyang could battle Kane, Bellerin is better than Trippier and Monreal is slightly ahead of Rose, but that's pretty much it. Both in starting lineup and depth is Tottenham ahead of Arsenal.
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That was bound to come out sooner or later :p

In my defense, I always make these posts in the morning, before I get too hungry, thirsty and drowsy :D

Dantes said:
@Fred In addition to my previous (not a dig, just enjoying the rivalled debate) ...


  • If I were asked how many Arsenal players I would want in the Spurs first XI - my answer would be zero. I don't think there's any that make our team better, and certainly not on the wages they'd be asking for.
  • If I were asked how many Juve players I'd want, then I'd have to think about that, I'd be weighing up other variables such as age, experience, potential to improve, mentality and intellectual maturity, confidence, tactical flexibility, adaptability to other cultures etc. It could be anywhere between 3 and 8. It's not all about mad skillz or which other big clubs they have on their CV.

I think what I'm trying to say is that Arsenal's 'better' players have very little depth to their qualities. I don't care whether Player A plays for Spain or Player B used to play for Real Madrid.

And perhaps, in that, I'm agreeing that Wenger wasn't a great manager of late - because he failed to recognise this. That personality is as important as potential. Not because he was incapable of getting the best out of the players he had, but because they are just inacapable of delivering their best with any degree of consistency, and he's to blame for signing them in the first place.
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Ya, now you're just being ridiculous.

Bellerin, Monreal, Mikhtiriyan, Ozil and Auba would all walk into Tottenham's team.

zizinho said:
Spurs-Arsenal XI imo

Cech
Aurier Alderwhatever Vertonghen Kolasinac
Eriksen Dembele Ramsey
Lacazette Kane Aubameyang
Click to expand...

Loris
Bellerin Alderwhatever Vertonghen Monreal
Dembele Eriksen
Mkhitiriyan(sp?) Ozil
Kane Auba
 
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