Oh Sh*t, Here We Go (2 Viewers)

[Hust]

This post is a grave mistake of underestimating what a European Third Reich could've accomplished. They wouldn't have been something the US could just do something about when the time came. You remember all those scientists that got smuggled out of Europe? Yeah, they would most likely have stayed. Hitler broke a peace pact with USSR FFS ( who does that? seriously? ) he wouldn't have hesitated to drop da bomb.

---------- Post added 09.09.2012 at 02:19 ----------



It's noble in retrospect, I can assure you that nothing but cost/benefit was considered before entering Europe. That's just how it works.

You never know, the its really just theoretical hypotheses now. We entered. It was noble. We were able to help you guys and get out of a depression. However, I don't think our governemnt was thinking "you know, this will fix our economy". It just happened that way. I think, after being hit by the Japs and what was happening in Europe we just say a problem too big for anyone else to fix and we wanted to help.

 

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[AndreaCristiano]

It's an interesting discussion, plus I'm enjoying it extra much after talking to AC for a couple of hours

Sometimes I feel like I'm not being coherent all the time because I keep jumping in and out do to work but it's a good conversation when no one is offending

 

[AndreaCristiano]

You never know, the its really just theoretical hypotheses now. We entered. It was noble. We were able to help you guys and get out of a depression. However, I don't think our governemnt was thinking "you know, this will fix our economy". It just happened that way. I think, after being hit by the Japs and what was happening in Europe we just say a problem too big for anyone else to fix and we wanted to help.

Thats what I was explaining before idealism versus realism

 

[Nzoric]

You never know, the its really just theoretical hypotheses now. We entered. It was noble. We were able to help you guys and get out of a depression. However, I don't think our governemnt was thinking "you know, this will fix our economy". It just happened that way. I think, after being hit by the Japs and what was happening in Europe we just say a problem too big for anyone else to fix and we wanted to help.

Why wouldn't your government be thinking that? The economic possibilities are immense, especially if the US are guaranteed a rather large piece of Éuropean market after the war. If there is one thing that wars on foreign soil guarantee, they guarantee an industrial reboot, created jobs and a promise of new economic allies (who desperately need your help after you're done liberating them).

You never know but you can try and form an educated opinion on it, which is what I'm trying to do. Facts are:

The Red Army broke the eastern front and were heading into Europe,
Stalingrad was a huge blow to Hitler, and the amount of manpower lost combined with the Russian momentum

I see it as a very reaslitic scenario that the ruskies could've finished the job on their own. ("on their own" as in without American physical presense, the financial aid the russians got from the US was important for their campaign).

 

[Hust]

Man up Hust, this is just a regular forum day.

Man, I thought I was done when you and I finished.

And you think the soldier cares if he kills innocent people and ends up calling it collateral damage? Why should so many innocent people die because they have a beef with Saddam? Why should so many people from the World Trade Center have to die because extremist are in a beef with American politics? Only difference here is that the army has a license to kill while suicide bombers don't.

Don't try to defend it by saying it wasn't intentional because if it wasn't intend to kill people then they should have made it easy on themselves and stayed at home. No countries gets bombed. There.


Look, I'm not here to justify suicide bombers. All I was trying to say is that what Kate wrote could be applied to suicide bombers too.

And I'm not trying to justify my military killing innocent people. It's a horrible horrible mistake, I get that dude. But, my ONLY point is the soliders don't intend to kill innocent people, thats not why they go into battle...suicide bombs on the other hand don't give a shit who they blow to pieces.

It's an interesting discussion, plus I'm enjoying it extra much after talking to AC for a couple of hours

Maddy is the one I'm worried about... (JK mads)

Why didn't they help in 1938 if they were that noble?

Using "noble" in a foreign policy discussion is rather naive.

We were trying to dig out of the great depression and the recession in 1937 probably scared the shit out of us again.

It could be a laundry list of "whys". So because we decided to join 2 years later we aren't noble, but if we entered in 1939 we would have been noble?

I don't think anyone realized here just how bad it was going to get. Pearl Harbor was an eye opener.

 

[Enron]

There was a reason we tried to stay neutral. $$

 

[Hust]

Why wouldn't your government be thinking that? The economic possibilities are immense, especially if the US are guaranteed a rather large piece of Éuropean market after the war. If there is one thing that wars on foreign soil guarantee, they guarantee an industrial reboot, created jobs and a promise of new economic allies (who desperately need your help after you're done liberating them).

You never know but you can try and form an educated opinion on it, which is what I'm trying to do. Facts are:

The Red Army broke the eastern front and were heading into Europe,
Stalingrad was a huge blow to Hitler, and the amount of manpower lost combined with the Russian momentum

I see it as a very reaslitic scenario that the ruskies could've finished the job on their own. ("on their own" as in without American physical presense, the financial aid the russians got from the US was important for their campaign).

There was no guarantee that we would win. We saw a global evil force that needed taken out.

I really don't think that the Russians could have taken Hitler out on their own (or with the Britts). The Germans had a head start in building their military along with taking over other nations in which their militarys joing the unfortunate cause.

 

[Nzoric]

You didn't join in on the European scene 2 years after 1937, D-Day was 6th of June, 1944

To put my argument into perspective, this is the Eastern Front in April 1944 - they've almost reached Warzaw.

---------- Post added 09.09.2012 at 02:34 ----------

There was no guarantee that we would win. We saw a global evil force that needed taken out.

.

That's my point exactly, Hitler's spine was broken in 1944. It's my theory, you don't have to agree with it. I just think there is a significant amount of empirical data implying that I might be right

 

[Maddy]

One question.

Who the fuck is Mads?

 

[Hust]

And wasn't it Stalin that was asking for the US/Brits to enter through France?

 

[Nzoric]

And wasn't it Stalin that was asking for the US/Brits to enter through France?

Yes, he sent Roosevelt letters in 1941 asking that the Allies open the Western front. 3 years later, it happened.

 

[Hust]

One question.

Who the fuck is Mads?

You, silly. I've got a lot of posting going on so apologies for abbreviating some words here and there.

---------- Post added 08.09.2012 at 20:39 ----------

Yes, he sent Roosevelt letters in 1941 asking that the Allies open the Western front. 3 years later, it happened.

Ergo my rebuttal for your theory. He was asking for assistance. I just don't think they could have done it alone.

Nice map though....looking at it on my Ipad (which I'm posting with) is like looking at a map of the stars...I need a bigger screen. :

 

[Martin]

Alright guys, I've had fun tonight. I should have been in bed hours ago. Later.

 

[Maddy]

You, silly. I've got a lot of posting going on so apologies for abbreviating some words here and there.

I'm not Mads

---------- Post added 09.09.2012 at 02:41 ----------

Alright guys, I've had fun tonight. I should have been in bed hours ago. Later.

Man, you've tricked Hustina into believing my name is Mads.

 

[Hust]

I'm not Mads

---------- Post added 09.09.2012 at 02:41 ----------



Man, you've tricked Hustina into believing my name is Mads.

Whoa, is Hustina an angry comeback for Mads?

Its cool...one of the many names I carry.

One more won't hurt.

 

[Nzoric]

Ergo my rebuttal for your theory. He was asking for assistance. I just don't think they could have done it alone.

Nice map though....looking at it on my Ipad (which I'm posting with) is like looking at a map of the stars...I need a bigger screen. :

I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but i just want to assure that you have your timeline down. Where the Eastern Front flipped, when the Russians began getting momentum and making progress towards Berlin lasted from august 92 - february 93. The point in time where Stalin is asking Roosevelt for help is just after Operation Barbarossa started (when Germany invaded the USSR).

Do you understand my point? When the USSR needed Allied help the most, nothing happened. After Stalingrad in 43 the Ruskies started gaining massive momentum and surprise surprise - the US open the western fron in 44 - after the Eastern Front has fallen. This is where my speculation (or conviction ) that the US acted almost exclusively out of some self preservatory instinct rather than helping Europe and being noble.

I hope I made it a bit more clear what I mean now, you're still welcome to not buy it

 

[Maddy]

Whoa, is Hustina an angry comeback for Mads?

Its cool...one of the many names I carry.

One more won't hurt.

I've compared you to Ziggy Stardust. You should be thrilled. I'm glad I jumped off the Dzeko-train. You and Treq can go and each other a handjob.

 

[Hust]

I've compared you to Ziggy Stardust. You should be thrilled. I'm glad I jumped off the Dzeko-train. You and Treq can go and each other a handjob.

Mads isn't an insult...unless there is another member with that name or nickname that I don't know about.

Don't you fucking dare jump off the Dzeko train. Get your ass back on. I like you.

 

[Maddy]

Mads isn't an insult...unless there is another member with that name or nickname that I don't know about.

Don't you fucking dare jump off the Dzeko train. Get your ass back on. I like you.

Mads is a typical danish name, but not mine. Don't like it. Rather call me Niels.

 

[Hust]

I'm sorry if I sound condescending, but i just want to assure that you have your timeline down. Where the Eastern Front flipped, when the Russians began getting momentum and making progress towards Berlin lasted from august 92 - february 93. The point in time where Stalin is asking Roosevelt for help is just after Operation Barbarossa started (when Germany invaded the USSR).

Do you understand my point? When the USSR needed Allied help the most, nothing happened. After Stalingrad in 43 the Ruskies started gaining massive momentum and surprise surprise - the US open the western fron in 44 - after the Eastern Front has fallen. This is where my speculation (or conviction ) that the US acted almost exclusively out of some self preservatory instinct rather than helping Europe and being noble.

I hope I made it a bit more clear what I mean now, you're still welcome to not buy it

Yes, clearer. But I still don't buy it.

I think eventually The Reds would have not beaten Gemany, but almost certainly blocked Germany from taking over Russia.

:edit: USSR