Not only Juve involved in wiretaps scandal (12 Viewers)

[isha00]

I fully agree with the fact that we shouldn't be paying for everyone, but claiming we never influenced games is naive to say the least. Come on, even you don't believe that. Sure, you can go all "they still have to prove it", but that doesn't take away the fact we actually all know we did it and that they eventually WILL find evidence. Most of your arguments are more than valid, but don't think for a second that that is how it's going to go.

How can be YOU so sure? On blind faith on what is being written?
Before being a Juventina, I'm an Italian citizen, and I REFUSE to believe that whoever can be considered guilty without proof. I don't care if it's Moggi or Berlusconi we are talking about. If it happens, what Moggi tells Pairetto is big BS, because the true scandal would be that I don't live in a civil country. Not that printing private conversations on newspapers makes us so civil.
For now I'll try to believe in justice.

Said that, if the "uomo nero" (or the "uomo in nero", like he has also been called) decided to "buttare la pasta" to get rid of Moggi and had the ability to control it all*, I say that Moggi had not this big influence on the calcio world, like they want us to believe.

Third, I perfectly know that if they need us to be guilty, there is a good chance they'll find a way. But I'll change my mind about this being deserved only when/if that evidence will be under my eyes.


* And I'm not talking just mediaticly, the phone of the Minister of Internal Affairs was tapped without him knowing, which is strange, but also against the law too, I might add.

 

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[Jus_Juve]

in english

Inter enter UEFA referee row
Saturday 20 May, 2006
Inter are also involved in the growing scandal after allegations Pierluigi Pairetto informed them in advance of Champions League referees.

One of the first issues that struck former Juventus director general Luciano Moggi in this investigation was the fact that designator Pairetto had told him the name of the referees assigned to their European games up to two weeks ahead of kick-off.

Under UEFA rules, clubs are not supposed to know who will officiate their ties until 48 hours before the match and Pairetto was reprimanded for that action.

According to new telephone interceptions quoted in today’s ‘Gazzetta dello Sport,’ Inter President Facchetti was also informed of the referees assigned to two of their Champions League group games in advance.

The phone calls, made in September 2004, see Pairetto confirming that Urs Meier has been assigned to the big game against Valencia and Kyros Vassaras for the Anderlecht encounter.

“I made them put Meier in for the second game, because that was the most important for you,” Pairetto was quoted as saying in the alleged telephone conversation. “I picked him, as he is a very reliable referee. Valencia is a tough atmosphere.”

The conversation took place on September 14, two weeks before Vassaras was officially assigned to the 3-1 win against Anderlecht and over a month before Swiss referee Meier officiated Inter’s 5-1 victory at Valencia’s Mestalla stadium.

Where did you get it from? Because the more big clubs are involved the less likely Juventus is going to be relegated.

If not we will only see Roma and some Italian minnows vyin for the Serie A title

Come on more scandals about other big clubs. Lets bring the 7 (Juventus, Milan, Inter, Parma, Roma, Lazio and Fiorentina) beauties of Italian football all to Serie B, and scrap the Serie A.

 

[Mark]

Where did you get it from? Because the more big clubs are involved the less likely Juventus is going to be relegated.

If not we will only see Roma and some Italian minnows vyin for the Serie A title

Come on more scandals about other big clubs. Lets bring the 7 (Juventus, Milan, Inter, Parma, Roma, Lazio and Fiorentina) beauties of Italian football all to Serie B, and scrap the Serie A.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/may20f.html

 

[Matteo..]

How can be YOU so sure? On blind faith on what is being written?
Before being a Juventina, I'm an Italian citizen, and I REFUSE to believe that whoever can be considered guilty without proof. I don't care if it's Moggi or Berlusconi we are talking about. If it happens, what Moggi tells Pairetto is big BS, because the true scandal would be that I don't live in a civil country. Not that printing private conversations on newspapers makes us so civil.
For now I'll try to believe in justice.

Said that, if the "uomo nero" (or the "uomo in nero", like he has also been called) decided to "buttare la pasta" to get rid of Moggi and had the ability to control it all*, I say that Moggi had not this big influence on the calcio world, like they want us to believe.

Third, I perfectly know that if they need us to be guilty, there is a good chance they'll find a way. But I'll change my mind about this being deserved only when/if that evidence will be under my eyes.


* And I'm not talking just mediaticly, the phone of the Minister of Internal Affairs was tapped without him knowing, which is strange, but also against the law too, I might add.

Perhaps I'm so sure because of all those refereeing errors that go our way? Come on, these aren't just human mistakes, that's statistically too unlikely.
Fact is, Juve CAN be found guilty without proof and CAN be relegated without proof.

 

[Mark]

Guys, I see at least 5 serie A and 1 serie B games per week and they ALL get calls in their favour. They just emphasize on Juve because they're Juve. Nobody cares about a "bad" call in a Livorno vs Chievo game.

 

[isha00]

Perhaps I'm so sure because of all those refereeing errors that go our way? Come on, these aren't just human mistakes, that's statistically too unlikely.
Fact is, Juve CAN be found guilty without proof and CAN be relegated without proof.

1) You really think mistakes are all in our favour? Well, I don't know what to say. The only difference between mistakes for and against us and other teams, is that the ones in our favour are highlighted and the others are not.
2) If we will be relegated and found guilty without proof, the fact will be that law and constitutional rights have no meaning in Italy. At that point I will be more concerned about this, than about Moggi's cell phone. I hope I won't be the only one.

 

[Matteo..]

1) You really think mistakes are all in our favour? Well, I don't know what to say. The only difference between mistakes for and against us and other teams, is that the ones in our favour are highlighted and the others are not.
2) If we will be relegated and found guilty without proof, the fact will be that law and constitutional rights have no meaning in Italy. At that point I will be more concerned about this, than about Moggi's cell phone. I hope I won't be the only one.

Law and football are two different things I'm afraid.

 

[isha00]

Law and football are two different things I'm afraid.

They are not, since the sportive judges have a degree in law like any other judge and if you can appeal, after the first sportive verdict, to ordinary courts (such as Tar, Consiglio di Stato, Cassazione).
To relegate us they will have to find an illicit, to make sure the relegation will stand, they will have to find also some evidence.

 

[Boksic]

If we will be relegated and found guilty without proof.

How can we be relegated without proof? The case has to be beyond "reasonable doubt" for any action to be taken, that means there must be conclusive evidence of wrong doing. at least that is how courts work in the UK

 

[isha00]

How can we be relegated without proof? The case has to be beyond "reasonable doubt" for any action to be taken, that means there must be conclusive evidence of wrong doing. at least that is how courts work in the UK

Yeah, I know, but I was discussing with Matteo, he mentioned that it could happen, I told him that, in that case, "the fact will be that law and constitutional rights have no meaning in Italy" :wink:

 

[Juve_Kosova]

Perhaps I'm so sure because of all those refereeing errors that go our way? Come on, these aren't just human mistakes, that's statistically too unlikely.
Fact is, Juve CAN be found guilty without proof and CAN be relegated without proof.

Well if that happens ill be going to italy and starting World War 3...!

And im sure ill have many people helping me..

 

[Seven]

They are not, since the sportive judges have a degree in law like any other judge and if you can appeal, after the first sportive verdict, to ordinary courts (such as Tar, Consiglio di Stato, Cassazione).
To relegate us they will have to find an illicit, to make sure the relegation will stand, they will have to find also some evidence.

Sure they'll have to find some evidence, but not nearly as much as in a legal case. That is "have to". The fact a lot of sportive judges have a degree in law, like you say, should help us. Then again I do not think we're completely innocent, hell I don't think ANY club in Italy is completely innocent, but more importantly Italy and the rest of Europe simply won't stand Juventus in Serie A now. Is a reaction like that justified? I don't know, but that's the situation the media created anyway.

 

[Maher]

Tuttosport

Inter are also in trouble
The Nerazzurri involved in new telephone interceptions: Facchetti discusses referees with Pairetto

good news

 

[jussiut]

Tuttosport

Inter are also in trouble
The Nerazzurri involved in new telephone interceptions: Facchetti discusses referees with Pairetto

good news

Well, that is pretty much nothing compared to Juve's situation. All they have against Inter is that they heard about their referees two weeks in advance. There's no match fixing etc. involved so I don't think they'll get punished.

 

[isha00]

Sure they'll have to find some evidence, but not nearly as much as in a legal case. That is "have to". The fact a lot of sportive judges have a degree in law, like you say, should help us. Then again I do not think we're completely innocent, hell I don't think ANY club in Italy is completely innocent, but more importantly Italy and the rest of Europe simply won't stand Juventus in Serie A now. Is a reaction like that justified? I don't know, but that's the situation the media created anyway.

Yeah, you're right. In fact I think that the most serious danger for us is the verdict the media have already emitted. This is what can kill us.
Like you said, no one is completely innocent. But how many of them are that guilty to get relegated? There should be violation of the 6th art. This violation shouldn't be based on phone taps, but on 'evidence' too, like a confession by a ref or a transfer of money.
The sportive judges (they all have a degree in law, btw) will have to base the punishment on something. They'll surely give their heart to find something, anything, because that's what the world expects them to do. I don't know what they will come up with, but sure a (illegal) phone tap where Moggi doesn't explicitly ask to win or to be helped in a match won't have a long life with lawyers like Chiappero, Buongiorno, Trofino and maybe Taormina.




I was considering something else, yesterday..
Let's imagine they relegate us or revoke our scudetti only on phone taps, this would lead our lawyers to appeal and continue to appeal till there will be a good verdict for us. We know that the last appeal would be to the Supreme Court and we know that they don't consider the taps usable in a sportive trial.
At that point we would be already playing in Serie B. Maybe we will have already been promoted to A.
The only thing to do then, since we can not turn back time, would be asking for a compensation to the figc. A hundreds of millions euros worth compensation, for the B, for the image damage, for all the money we didn't gain, for the players we lost.
Now that would be the death of Italian calcio: bankruptcy.

Question is: are they really that confident to make it to risk so much?

 

[isha00]

Well, that is pretty much nothing compared to Juve's situation. All they have against Inter is that they heard about their referees two weeks in advance. There's no match fixing etc. involved so I don't think they'll get punished.

The phone tap of Facchetti is incredibly similar at the ones we read of Moggi at the beginning fo this scandal. All media were pointing at how scandalous it was that Moggi talked on the phone with Bergamo and Pairetto. Now they are mute.

No match fixing has been proved or confirmed yet.

 

[jussiut]

The phone tap of Facchetti is incredibly similar at the ones we read of Moggi at the beginning fo this scandal. All media were pointing at how scandalous it was that Moggi talked on the phone with Bergamo and Pairetto. Now they are mute.

No match fixing has been proved or confirmed yet.

Yes but I do believe there is a difference. In Moggi's case the phone records show that Pairetto organized referees how Moggi wanted, yes? In Inter's case Pairetto & Co. only told them the referees beforehand? Or am I mistaken?

 

[Philipp00]

Yes but I do believe there is a difference. In Moggi's case the phone records show that Pairetto organized referees how Moggi wanted, yes? In Inter's case Pairetto & Co. only told them the referees beforehand? Or am I mistaken?

I think the situation was more or less the same. The difference is just that we are juventus. if we do something it is the worst thing in the world.

 

[jussiut]

I think the situation was more or less the same. The difference is just that we are juventus. if we do something it is the worst thing in the world.

“You cannot confuse a simple request for information with the imposition of your will on others. It was like asking the weather, hardly dictating rules. Our President is a fantastic person and confirmed it in this instance. We must all be wary of confusing the roles people have in this inquest.” - Luis Figo

According to him the situation is different...and he's very impartial.

But seriously, this whole operation was lead by Moggi and there haven't been any implications in the phone taps that Inter would be seriously involved. I'm afraid they get away from this scandal with clean hands. Maybe we shouldn't mock Inter after all, we all know some of the controversial refereeing decisions to our favor in Inter games from the past decade.

 

[Wings]

The phone calls, made in September 2004, see Pairetto confirming that Urs Meier has been assigned to the big game against Valencia and Kyros Vassaras for the Anderlecht encounter.

“I made them put Meier in for the second game, because that was the most important for you,” Pairetto was quoted as saying in the alleged telephone conversation. “I picked him, as he is a very reliable referee. Valencia is a tough atmosphere.”

The conversation took place on September 14, two weeks before Vassaras was officially assigned to the 3-1 win against Anderlecht and over a month before Swiss referee Meier officiated Inter’s 5-1 victory at Valencia’s Mestalla stadium.
Source Channel4

If Channel4 got the transcript right then it seems Inter also influenced the choice of referee's. Figo's self righteousness is making nauseous.