North Korea Apparently Carries Out Nuclear Test (21 Viewers)

[Rami]

Hold it, let's keep this one a two-way street. If it's being said OUR media are flawed (and for all intents and purposes I would indeed defend that statement to the end of days), then I would also like to point out that such a statement goes for all media. Full stop. Meaning you couldn't by definition know Iraq and Afghanistan are in fact worse off right now unless you've actually been to those places both before and after the war. Have you?

Where did I say that YOUR (I presume you meant western media by "OUR")? I said media in general whether its BBC, CNN, or Al-Jazeerah.

And no I haven't been to Iraq or Afghanistan, but all I know is that if we had bombings every other day in Baghdad and other parts we would've heard about it, pre-invasions that is....

 

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[Omair]

Well to me ... It's much better social and urban situation in Nkorea than in other countries ... like Nepal or Somalia ..

That doesn't mean that I would live there .. all I mean is if it's about society they're just about fine ... which means, let communism aside, Kim Il Song has a good internal system ( or atleast it appears to be) ... He has only problems in his external relations ..

 

[ReBeL]

That's not how I understand the situation but I'll admit that I don't know a lot about the subject. I should probably refrain from comments, since I only picked up some things from various media sources and Kurdish protesting groups when I worked for the Dutch government.

It was a horrible massacre, I should admit but there were many massacres in the World, and nobody moved an eyebrow about them...

By the way, what do you think of the Dutch role in Srebrenica, Erik??

I know it is a totally different subject, but I just want to know if anybody was chased in Netherlands about the issue or not...

 

[Rami]

Well to me ... It's much better social and urban situation in Nkorea than in other countries ... like Nepal or Somalia ..

That doesn't mean that I would live there .. all I mean is if it's about society they're fine ... which means, let communism aside, Kim Il Song has a good internal system ( or atleast it appears to be) ... He has only problems in his external relations ..

Oh FFS what do you know...you live in Saudi Arabia!!!!

You don't know what freedom and democracy is, Bushy junior WILL educate you....

:toast:

 

[Bisco]

Oh FFS what do you know...you live in Saudi Arabia!!!!

You don't know what freedom and democracy is, Bushy junior WILL educate you....

:toast:

no one knows it better thanbushy junior rami!!!

 

[Bisco]

North Korea.

What an absolute joke. What a big, sad, absolute joke. It's beyond me how such a society could exist in the modern world. Then their leader wants to have nuclear weapons to try and gain credability in the civilized world? Makes absolutely no sense and it must be a living hell for citizens of such a ridiculous nation.

what makes north korea a ridiculous nation? u cant really blame the people bec at the end of the day they have no right to disagree with there leaders, in other words they dont have the gift of freedom of speech just the same way it was in iraq.

 

[Slagathor]

Where did I say that YOUR (I presume you meant western media by "OUR")? I said media in general whether its BBC, CNN, or Al-Jazeerah.

And no I haven't been to Iraq or Afghanistan, but all I know is that if we had bombings every other day in Baghdad and other parts we would've heard about it, pre-invasions that is....

The 'our' was examplatory. And there are many things I would put far below bombings on my wish list.

These lines;

Oh boohoo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and perhaps a 3 dozens of other countries are living in worsers situations because of Bush's policies....

to me, sounded like you were convinced you knew what you were talking about surrounding the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now either you were convinced of that because you'd experienced it first hand, or because you have some sort of faith or conviction in whichever media you follow which clearly couldn't be the same media Vinman and I are dialy exposed to because you condemned those earlier. Catch my drift?

It was a horrible massacre, I should admit but there were many massacres in the World, and nobody moved an eyebrow about them...

I wasn't saying I shared the viewpoint of the Kurds that Iraq is a better nation now though. Just so we're clear on that. I wouldn't just do that, simply cause I don't know enough about the situation

By the way, what do you think of the Dutch role in Srebrenica, Erik??

I know it is a totally different subject, but I just want to know if anybody was chased in Netherlands about the issue or not...

Ah Srebrenica, our national nightmare. Yes that had a very deep effect on us as a nation. There were protests and silent marches right after it had happened and the international investigation carried out afterwards drew several conclusions:

1. The Dutch were at fault for not defending the victims to their ability even though they were vastly outnumbered and underarmed
2. The French and Americans were partly to blame for not sending in air support despite several Dutch requests
3. The United Nations were to blame for the fact that the Dutch had, in the months before the massacre, not received more support despite several official requests.

Obviously conclusion #1 (I think there were more but I don't remember) is the most important for us here. When it was published, the government collapsed, society was caught by a certain panic and chaos and new elections were rather messy. Political parties like the Socialists called for the Netherlands to abandon NATO, the EU and the UN altogether and never engage in international peace missions again.

There were also trials against several of the soldiers involved I believe, but I don't know the details about those...

 

[ReBeL]

Ah Srebrenica, our national nightmare. Yes that had a very deep effect on us as a nation. There were protests and silent marches right after it had happened and the international investigation carried out afterwards drew several conclusions:

1. The Dutch were at fault for not defending the victims to their ability even though they were vastly outnumbered and underarmed
2. The French and Americans were partly to blame for not sending in air support despite several Dutch requests
3. The United Nations were to blame for the fact that the Dutch had, in the months before the massacre, not received more support despite several official requests.

Obviously conclusion #1 (I think there were more but I don't remember) is the most important for us here. When it was published, the government collapsed, society was caught by a certain panic and chaos and new elections were rather messy. Political parties like the Socialists called for the Netherlands to abandon NATO, the EU and the UN altogether and never engage in international peace missions again.

There were also trials against several of the soldiers involved I believe, but I don't know the details about those...

Thanks very much

 

[Omair]

Oh FFS what do you know...you live in Saudi Arabia!!!!

You don't know what freedom and democracy is, Bushy junior WILL educate you....

:toast:

Oh what the hell are you talking about .. We're a free country here aren't we ??

We don't need that Bush guy to educate us we have a reaaaal gooood educating system .. don't let us get started on that ...

 

[Bisco]

Oh what the hell are you talking about .. We're a free country here aren't we ??

We don't need that Bush guy to educate us we have a reaaaal gooood educating system .. don't let us get started on that ...

sshhhhhhhhhhhhh u two we dont want to get into trouble here

 

[Rami]

The 'our' was examplatory. And there are many things I would put far below bombings on my wish list.

These lines;



to me, sounded like you were convinced you knew what you were talking about surrounding the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now either you were convinced of that because you'd experienced it first hand, or because you have some sort of faith or conviction in whichever media you follow which clearly couldn't be the same media Vinman and I are dialy exposed to because you condemned those earlier. Catch my drift?

Erik, weren't the bombings of holy shrines, Abu-Gharib incident, the looting, the almost-every-day massaceres ...etc were reported on all media, east or west, left or right?

Things weren't like that in Iraq in Saddam's era. Saddam is a tyrant, I loath him very much, but at least at those days things were stable, the country was not on the verge of a civil war.... and people could walk peacfully on the streets....

 

[Rami]

Lol...these forums are SOOO polarized....

At least Juve brings us together

 

[Slagathor]

Erik, weren't the bombings of holy shrines, Abu-Gharib incident, the looting, the almost-every-day massaceres ...etc were reported on all media, east or west, left or right?

Not nearly in the same way, no

Things weren't like that in Iraq in Saddam's era. Saddam is a tyrant, I loath him very much, but at least at those days things were stable, the country was not on the verge of a civil war.... and people could walk peacfully on the streets....

At the same time (from what I gather) they couldn't speak freely in public, women couldn't follow education of any sort and at all times were under threat from their own authorities who could arrest, torture and kill anyone at any given point in time for no reason whatsoever. Whichever scenario you prefer is of course entirely optional and whatever I say won't matter much since I have experienced neither.

 

[Martin]

Oh boohoo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and perhaps a 3 dozens of other countries are living in worsers situations because of Bush's policies....

And that post is by no means objective....The country is no heaven I give you that, but its not what you think is either...

Oh really. And how exactly would you know?

Well to me ... It's much better social and urban situation in Nkorea than in other countries ... like Nepal or Somalia ..

That doesn't mean that I would live there .. all I mean is if it's about society they're just about fine ... which means, let communism aside, Kim Il Song has a good internal system ( or atleast it appears to be) ... He has only problems in his external relations ..

What the hell??

 

[Rami]

Not nearly in the same way, no



At the same time (from what I gather) they couldn't speak freely in public, women couldn't follow education of any sort and at all times were under threat from their own authorities who could arrest, torture and kill anyone at any given point in time for no reason whatsoever. Whichever scenario you prefer is of course entirely optional and whatever I say won't matter much since I have experienced neither.

There is one major difference between what you are saying and what I am saying...I am saying bombings, killings, lootings...etc in which all is documented via photographs and video, in which describes to us vividly whats happening on the ground....

But in your case, you are saying freedom of speach, secret arrests and torture, denying women of education (which is the first time I hear). No matter who reports it, there will be subjectivity. For every detractor of the Iraqi regime there will be a supporter...

catch my drift?

 

[Rami]

Oh really. And how exactly would you know?

You mean how would I know if the post is objective or not?

 

[Slagathor]

There is one major difference between what you are saying and what I am saying...I am saying bombings, killings, lootings...etc in which all is documented via photographs and video, in which describes to us vividly whats happening on the ground....

You don't really believe that do you?

But in your case, you are saying freedom of speach, secret arrests and torture, denying women of education (which is the first time I hear). No matter who reports it, there will be subjectivity. For every detractor of the Iraqi regime there will be a supporter...

catch my drift?

That goes without saying, the point is that subjectivity plays a very, VERY strong factor in ANY media report, whether it's a written piece about a lack of freedom of speech in Saddam's Iraq or a picture of a bomb explosion in Baghdad in 2005.

 

[Rami]

You don't really believe that do you?



That goes without saying, the point is that subjectivity plays a very, VERY strong factor in ANY media report, whether it's a written piece about a lack of freedom of speech in Saddam's Iraq or a picture of a bomb explosion in Baghdad in 2005.

Yes but the subjectivity leaked into a bombing report will always be less than a freedom of speech report, at the end people are DEAD no matter how you spin a bombing report, one cannot the say the same about the latter....no?

Edit: yes I believe in that....

 

[Slagathor]

Yes but the subjectivity leaked into a bombing report will always be less than a freedom of speech report, at the end people are DEAD no matter how you spin a bombing report, one cannot the say the same about the latter....no?

Edit: yes I believe that

Number of deaths is what you are basing all of this on? A figure? Have you ever been to the site of a bombing? I've experienced the chaos, first estimates are based on entry lists (who was in the building at the time of the bombing), second estimates are based on the force of the blast, third estimates are based on how many people are saved versus the ratio of how many are found death, fourth estimates have to take into consideration how many of those rescued are likely to survive in hospital, fifth estimates are made when the official deadlines of how long a human being can respectably be considered to survive under certain circumstances.

Now the problems start at the very first estimates: who was in the building at the time of the blast. Usually there are no registers of visitors and even if there were, they were probably destroyed by the blast. That means the officials have to fall back on what they hear from witnesses and locals, who will tell them to the best of their knowledge how many people they saw going in earlier on the day and how many people are usually in there that time of the week. Those are so unreliable you wouldn't believe it. I don't think I need to expand my explanation to telling you what's wrong with the other four estimates.

Which means the press officials will usually have to resort to the roughest of all conclusions and hand out figures among the lines of "We have reason to believe between 100 and 1000 people have perished". Either that, or they say they don't know. At this point, two things can happen:

1. The press officials have to hand out new explanations roughly every five minutes. Their information has changed every single time, the media sources in question will happily write down all the different estimates, and take whichever one suits their target group best. Was the first estimate 1000 and the second 500? Let's stick with 1000, it's juicier.

2. If no estimates are given, the press will 'investigate' themselves. Meaning they will interview whomever is on the street that moment and says they know the building well. I don't need to tell you that's even less reliable.

In conclusion: I would argue reports of any nature (by press or otherwise) surrounding chaotic situations are the very least reliable of all. Say you're watching a spokesperson of the Baghdad police on television hand out an explanation and an estimate of what has happened: did you really think that was the first and only time he's been presenting himself in front of TV cameras that day? Hell no. The reporters will tape every single presentation of his and pick out the one they like best for broadcasting.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but those thousand words are contradicting and mean nothing. Pictures may not lie, but photographers do.

 

[ReBeL]

Ok, then if you are skeptical regarding the toll of death in the current explosions, you should also be skeptical about the rumours of what happened during Saddam's reign in the iraqi prisons...

I don't deny that many people were humilated during Saddam's years, but the solution was not by rescuing those probable victims and shooting them later by alien troops...