OP
Dude..I'm a Niners fan...things could be worse. For the record, I liked Mariucci.
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Nick Against the World (39 Viewers)
- Thread starter IncuboRossonero
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OP
Maybe but it has to do much more with his no-shit attitude he had towards T.O. He knew his job depended on his relationship with Owens and he wouldn't let the spoiled brat step over him....They got rid of Mariucci because of Owens and then got rid of Owens...fvckin brilliant.
Andy: yes, the niners have an illustrious history but thats what makes it extremely painful to watch John York turn the team to sh*t...
Pado: you really know how to pick em: Juve and the Pack...how tacky :cheesy:
Vin: I figured you for an Argonauts fan
Andy: yes, the niners have an illustrious history but thats what makes it extremely painful to watch John York turn the team to sh*t...
Pado: you really know how to pick em: Juve and the Pack...how tacky :cheesy:
Vin: I figured you for an Argonauts fan
Paul,
Good points. Is there really that much of a difference between the Tour/Giro/Vuelta and single day races though (in terms of doping that is)?
My impression is that there can be just as much doping in the latter. How many times have we seen otherwise average riders win two or three such races in the first months of the season only to go back to anonymity for the rest of the season? A bit too many not to smell something fishy I am afraid. I might be wrong, but I am under the impression that whereas in a big tour, the most talented cyclist always wins in the end, this isn't always the case in single day events.
Regarding Juve and Festina, I still think there is a distinction to be made though. The Juve story started with noises coming from Zeman and progressively evolved into an inquiry and a trial. Festina however were caught bang at the start of the Tour, i.e. the most important event of the season, when all the spotlights were on. It’s quite natural that the other teams decided to stick for them, if only to protect none other than themselves.
I know Voet was just a soigneur. I named him because I forgot who the team doctor was back then. Gotta buy his book "massacre à la chaîne" btw, which seems very revealing regarding the doping practices going on in those years. Who was this horse doctor you speak of though ?
Total agreement regarding the image Armstrong is spreading. Cheater or not, it has always irritated me how he uses his past illness to promote himself. I mean, he survived cancer, and that's great, Im happy for him. But so did many others and they don't use it as a way to gain popularity. Also, and this might sound cynical, but isn’t testicular cancer often the result of the absorption of said doping substances ? The pre-96 Armstrong was a monster of a man, easily 15 kilos heavier than he is now. Why does he seldom speak about that period of his career ?
I agree also that though his 7 consecutive Tour wins are a historic achievement, the fact that he never won a single day race (or at least after he returned from his illness), never took part in the Giro or the Vuelta, didn't beat the hour record, doens't make him the greatest. From what I've read, the greatest ever has to be Merckx. The guy won everything, all the time, all year long, simple as. And his hour record still stands, 30 years on. Not that he wasn't taking any substances either though.
I don’t really know how to feel about Pantani. As I said, his feats in the mountains, whether at the Giro or at the Tour, are some of the most epic moments of sport I have ever witnessed. Unfortunately it turned out he was doped, or at least in some of them.
As you said, this happened in an era where the majority of the peloton was probably just as doped, but it is still no excuse. Just like I have been strongly condemning Juventus for the doping saga on this forum, it is my duty to condemn Pantani as well, otherwise it simply makes me a hypocrite.
However there are a few nuances. First, the fact that Pantani has to take all the blame on himself, unlike at Juve where it is spread over a certain number of players. And Pantani was caught in the middle of a Giro he was utterly dominating, so the news came as a much bigger bomb.
Secondly, the fact that Pantani’s life came to such an abrupt and tragic end. His addiction to drugs after quitting was probably a consequence of all the "loading" in his professional years (though apparently he was already taking cocaine and frequenting the wrong guys as a cyclist). But the guy paid for his cheating with his life, which is more than many a Juve footballer can say.
Though who knows : they are now inquiring on suspicious deaths of Fiorentina players from the 70’s, and one could always bring up the example of Genoa’s Signorini as well, who got Gehrig’s disease as a result of what he had been administered. So maybe we will witness a similar slaughter in a few year's time with some of the current players? I really hope we won't, but again, who knows.
Also, Pantani was ready to stop the Tour in the middle of the Festina scandal in 98, even though he was leading and probably going to finally win it after many attempts, as he eventually did. Would Armstrong have done the same ? I don’t know, but at least it earns Pantani a few points.
I also feel kind of bad for Virenque. He was very much used as a scapegoat, implacably ridiculed by the French press for months, even for futile reasons such as his difficulty to express himself correctly. Sure he lied by saying he never knew what they were giving him, but so did the majority of cyclists caught after him, and they never found themselves at the receiving end of a proper mediatic lynching as he did. In the end he came back and won some important stages though, so I guess he took his revenge.
In the end, I still feel more sad than angry regarding Pantani. This was the story of a man who was one of the best climbers in history and was adulated by the fans for it, only to die alone, abandoned by most, in a hotel room in Rimini.
Good points. Is there really that much of a difference between the Tour/Giro/Vuelta and single day races though (in terms of doping that is)?
My impression is that there can be just as much doping in the latter. How many times have we seen otherwise average riders win two or three such races in the first months of the season only to go back to anonymity for the rest of the season? A bit too many not to smell something fishy I am afraid. I might be wrong, but I am under the impression that whereas in a big tour, the most talented cyclist always wins in the end, this isn't always the case in single day events.
Regarding Juve and Festina, I still think there is a distinction to be made though. The Juve story started with noises coming from Zeman and progressively evolved into an inquiry and a trial. Festina however were caught bang at the start of the Tour, i.e. the most important event of the season, when all the spotlights were on. It’s quite natural that the other teams decided to stick for them, if only to protect none other than themselves.
I know Voet was just a soigneur. I named him because I forgot who the team doctor was back then. Gotta buy his book "massacre à la chaîne" btw, which seems very revealing regarding the doping practices going on in those years. Who was this horse doctor you speak of though ?
Total agreement regarding the image Armstrong is spreading. Cheater or not, it has always irritated me how he uses his past illness to promote himself. I mean, he survived cancer, and that's great, Im happy for him. But so did many others and they don't use it as a way to gain popularity. Also, and this might sound cynical, but isn’t testicular cancer often the result of the absorption of said doping substances ? The pre-96 Armstrong was a monster of a man, easily 15 kilos heavier than he is now. Why does he seldom speak about that period of his career ?
I agree also that though his 7 consecutive Tour wins are a historic achievement, the fact that he never won a single day race (or at least after he returned from his illness), never took part in the Giro or the Vuelta, didn't beat the hour record, doens't make him the greatest. From what I've read, the greatest ever has to be Merckx. The guy won everything, all the time, all year long, simple as. And his hour record still stands, 30 years on. Not that he wasn't taking any substances either though.
I don’t really know how to feel about Pantani. As I said, his feats in the mountains, whether at the Giro or at the Tour, are some of the most epic moments of sport I have ever witnessed. Unfortunately it turned out he was doped, or at least in some of them.
As you said, this happened in an era where the majority of the peloton was probably just as doped, but it is still no excuse. Just like I have been strongly condemning Juventus for the doping saga on this forum, it is my duty to condemn Pantani as well, otherwise it simply makes me a hypocrite.
However there are a few nuances. First, the fact that Pantani has to take all the blame on himself, unlike at Juve where it is spread over a certain number of players. And Pantani was caught in the middle of a Giro he was utterly dominating, so the news came as a much bigger bomb.
Secondly, the fact that Pantani’s life came to such an abrupt and tragic end. His addiction to drugs after quitting was probably a consequence of all the "loading" in his professional years (though apparently he was already taking cocaine and frequenting the wrong guys as a cyclist). But the guy paid for his cheating with his life, which is more than many a Juve footballer can say.
Though who knows : they are now inquiring on suspicious deaths of Fiorentina players from the 70’s, and one could always bring up the example of Genoa’s Signorini as well, who got Gehrig’s disease as a result of what he had been administered. So maybe we will witness a similar slaughter in a few year's time with some of the current players? I really hope we won't, but again, who knows.
Also, Pantani was ready to stop the Tour in the middle of the Festina scandal in 98, even though he was leading and probably going to finally win it after many attempts, as he eventually did. Would Armstrong have done the same ? I don’t know, but at least it earns Pantani a few points.
I also feel kind of bad for Virenque. He was very much used as a scapegoat, implacably ridiculed by the French press for months, even for futile reasons such as his difficulty to express himself correctly. Sure he lied by saying he never knew what they were giving him, but so did the majority of cyclists caught after him, and they never found themselves at the receiving end of a proper mediatic lynching as he did. In the end he came back and won some important stages though, so I guess he took his revenge.
In the end, I still feel more sad than angry regarding Pantani. This was the story of a man who was one of the best climbers in history and was adulated by the fans for it, only to die alone, abandoned by most, in a hotel room in Rimini.
Libero, your belief that Juve players were doped is as funny as your belief that Andreotti was innocent of his Mafia involvement.
What is even sadder than the way Pantani's life ended is the fact that Italy's judicial system is an absolute circus. I would call it a joke, but it is far more tragic than comic.
What is even sadder than the way Pantani's life ended is the fact that Italy's judicial system is an absolute circus. I would call it a joke, but it is far more tragic than comic.
For the record, I liked Mariucci as well. Far better than Erickson.
However, I like Mike Nolan a LOT more than I like either one of those two.
Give Alex Smith some time, he's only 21. The Niners COULD win 5 games this year if they are healthy along the Offensive Line.
They finally have the infrastructure on the coaching staff (Nolan, McCarhty, Singletary...........yes MIKE SINGLETARY) that can bring some cohesion to this team. The ownership is finally starting to spend some money, and they are, all in all, a very young squad. Just give it some time.
still waiting for Cassano.
However, I like Mike Nolan a LOT more than I like either one of those two.
Give Alex Smith some time, he's only 21. The Niners COULD win 5 games this year if they are healthy along the Offensive Line.
They finally have the infrastructure on the coaching staff (Nolan, McCarhty, Singletary...........yes MIKE SINGLETARY) that can bring some cohesion to this team. The ownership is finally starting to spend some money, and they are, all in all, a very young squad. Just give it some time.
still waiting for Cassano.
Paddio, sell your Sheisse zu die touristen.
I never claimed Andreotti was innocent (even if he was eventually acquitted). I just said that the witchhunt that has been organised against him was way over the line.
At some point it seemed as if everything bad and illegal that has happened in Italy over the past 60 years was Andreotti's fault.
The Red Brigades? His fault.
Tangentopoli? His fault. (Well in this he may have had a hand actually).
San Gennaro's blood failing to liquefy? You guessed it : his fault again.
They even claimed that Andreotti took advantage of his travels to Sicily to personally meet the super boss Totò Riina and kiss him on both cheeks.
Please...
Andreotti, arguably the most intelligent (note : I say intelligent, NOT honest) Italian politician since the end of WW II kissing the Godfather of all godfathers.
But of course.
Too much fumus persecutionis, not enough substance.
I never claimed Andreotti was innocent (even if he was eventually acquitted). I just said that the witchhunt that has been organised against him was way over the line.
At some point it seemed as if everything bad and illegal that has happened in Italy over the past 60 years was Andreotti's fault.
The Red Brigades? His fault.
Tangentopoli? His fault. (Well in this he may have had a hand actually).
San Gennaro's blood failing to liquefy? You guessed it : his fault again.
They even claimed that Andreotti took advantage of his travels to Sicily to personally meet the super boss Totò Riina and kiss him on both cheeks.
Please...
Andreotti, arguably the most intelligent (note : I say intelligent, NOT honest) Italian politician since the end of WW II kissing the Godfather of all godfathers.
But of course.
Too much fumus persecutionis, not enough substance.
++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
Maybe but it has to do much more with his no-shit attitude he had towards T.O. He knew his job depended on his relationship with Owens and he wouldn't let the spoiled brat step over him....They got rid of Mariucci because of Owens and then got rid of Owens...fvckin brilliant.
Andy: yes, the niners have an illustrious history but thats what makes it extremely painful to watch John York turn the team to sh*t...
Pado: you really know how to pick em: Juve and the Pack...how tacky :cheesy:
Vin: I figured you for an Argonauts fan
Maybe but it has to do much more with his no-shit attitude he had towards T.O. He knew his job depended on his relationship with Owens and he wouldn't let the spoiled brat step over him....They got rid of Mariucci because of Owens and then got rid of Owens...fvckin brilliant.
Andy: yes, the niners have an illustrious history but thats what makes it extremely painful to watch John York turn the team to sh*t...
Pado: you really know how to pick em: Juve and the Pack...how tacky :cheesy:
Vin: I figured you for an Argonauts fan
I've tried to watch the CFL (we get all the games here), and I just cant get over the goalposts being right on the damn goal line
I am just waiting to see a receiver slam face first into it, going for a ball