Nick Against the World (64 Viewers)

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

come on Nick, we're talking about Milan here

There is only one PAOLO MALDINI for Milan fans just as there is only one Alex Del Piero for Juve fans: . It takes a long time to FORM a team like the one Milan have...it takes a hell of a lot to make it to the CL Final ... I don't know if this current squad will be able to keep it up for the remainder of Paolo's career...i.e. Allow him the opportunity to lift another CL Title.

 

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[jaecole]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


Re-read my first post: I did not say the WIN was handed to them...or the REF made a blatant error. However, to comeback from 3-0 you need heart, perseverance and a bit of luck: calls to go your way: they had all three.

Well we know we were fortunate, everyone knows that. The difference is you are calling foul play, not bad luck.

You are talking about Nesta's hand ball which I covered...it grazed his elbow which in any event was a classic case of an involuntary handball as he was actually turning his body to avoid the shot...besides amputate his arms I don't know HOW he could avoid it.

It's more about how he went down in the first place to cover the ball. That wasn't a tackle. And he turned around and blocked.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Seven ] ++
I can't help it, but I mostly agree with Nick. The Nesta case however, was a clear penalty. Nesta was mostly lying down as Luis Garcia was going past him, but then he turned around and hit the ball with his arm. That's NOT involuntary.

You saw what you wanted to because that was not at all how it materialized..Nesta slid into (I thought it was Baros) and the player kicked the ball as Nesta turned his body....he GRAZED...even THIS is hard to tell from the reply his right elbow...but it was such a weak shot it was going nowehere..
regardless you don't CALL a PK there unless its really VOLUNTARY which it was not..
you also don't call a PK on the Gattuso incident unless its really flagrant..which it was not.
Baggio has dived...Shevchenko has dived..Del Piero has dived and even Van Basten has dived....please don't tell me that 'diving' is beyond Gerrard...

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


There is only one PAOLO MALDINI for Milan fans just as there is only one Alex Del Piero for Juve fans: . It takes a long time to FORM a team like the one Milan have...it takes a hell of a lot to make it to the CL Final ... I don't know if this current squad will be able to keep it up for the remainder of Paolo's career...i.e. Allow him the opportunity to lift another CL Title.

Well, I think this Milan squad has one more chance to lift the CL, next season. After that I'm afraid the rebuilding process will have to begin and Maldini will retire after such a fantastic career.

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
any event was a classic case of an involuntary handball as he was actually turning his body to avoid the shot...besides amputate his arms I don't know HOW he could avoid it.

The case of hand too ball or ball too hand is no longer an issue with uefa... In recent times it has become, if you touch the ball with an illegal part of the body... it was handball.

That is the way it is treated and has been for a while... I dont agree with it but thats the wqay it is.

I also do not accept that nesta didnt know exactly what he was doing... he missed the challenge and was aware enough to do what was needed to stop the attack...
It was great defending but still in my view a clear pen

PAUL: Was Sheva's FIRST GOAL OFFSIDE??

his ones a bit harder.

My initial thought as i watched it live was that it was a bad call.
they then showed it from several angles... none of which i found to be truely conclusive... some suggesting a good call, some a bad call.

My opinion is that it was too close too call and as such i would not have complained if it was given or indeed as was the case that is was ruled out

There wasnt daylight and as such to me it was a judgement call and either way wouldnt have bothered me...

Sorry thats all i can say on that issue

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


There is only one PAOLO MALDINI for Milan fans just as there is only one Alex Del Piero for Juve fans: . It takes a long time to FORM a team like the one Milan have...it takes a hell of a lot to make it to the CL Final ... I don't know if this current squad will be able to keep it up for the remainder of Paolo's career...i.e. Allow him the opportunity to lift another CL Title.

I'll say the reason i say there will be equal times to come for milan in the most basic way i can....

The best defender the world ever produced... Franco Baresi.... ooh wait we have maldini

Hope you see what i mean

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by jaecole ] ++
It was a lousy save, nothing to blame for that goal but the keeper. I think you are giving Baro's too much credit. I also don't see how in the space of a moment, Nick had time to see the offside, the keepers positioning and vision and Baros interference. Maybe he should become a ref. In reality he was probably munching on a kebab.

Sorry no kebabs for sale..in fact the facilities were horrible ... the line up in the ONE food stand was ridiculous.
You see the offside because you have an ELEVATED view and you see the positioning very clearly whereas the camera may cut players from their angle.
Watch the replay..there is one shot (camera) where it follows the shot from behind Smicer: you see Baros moving away from the BALL at the last second (admirable by the way: reflex wise) .... anyone who has it one tape should watch it..

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++

I am sorry for getting fed up with you the last time btw. I certainly don't think that you are not entitled to speak your mind on Heysel. In fact I feel honoured that an Englishman (especially an Englishman, considering that they sometimes tend to be a bit insular) has such a deep-rooted knowledge of and interest in Italy, and more particularly in the city of Turin, where half my family lives (most of which are unfortunately "juventini doc").

No worries Libero...

Nothing you said offended me for more than a few minutes and i hope you know from our conversations the regard i hold you in here and know i would never do anything jus to upset you.

Cheers and hopefully... welcome back

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


I'll say the reason i say there will be equal times to come for milan in the most basic way i can....

The best defender the world ever produced... Franco Baresi.... ooh wait we have maldini

Hope you see what i mean

Don't want to sound like an old fart but back in the day Italy produced Baresi's...Scirea's....Maldini's.....Del Piero's and Baggio's...

today we have Totti's and Cassano's...

I'm sure you see what I mean....

 

[Seven]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


You saw what you wanted to because that was not at all how it materialized..Nesta slid into (I thought it was Baros) and the player kicked the ball as Nesta turned his body....he GRAZED...even THIS is hard to tell from the reply his right elbow...but it was such a weak shot it was going nowehere..
regardless you don't CALL a PK there unless its really VOLUNTARY which it was not..
you also don't call a PK on the Gattuso incident unless its really flagrant..which it was not.
Baggio has dived...Shevchenko has dived..Del Piero has dived and even Van Basten has dived....please don't tell me that 'diving' is beyond Gerrard...

Gerrard dived. The replay showed a pretty clear dive.
But why are we talking about this? Either way, Milan was a disgrace on wednesday. When you're able to humiliate a team like that, you don't give it away. No matter how much the ref helped Liverpool, it should have still ended 5-0. Don't tell me that Liverpool were even half as good as Milan.

 

[jaecole]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
You see the offside because you have an ELEVATED view and you see the positioning very clearly whereas the camera may cut players from their angle.
Watch the replay..there is one shot (camera) where it follows the shot from behind Smicer: you see Baros moving away from the BALL at the last second (admirable by the way: reflex wise) .... anyone who has it one tape should watch it..

Of course he moved away from the ball, I can see that from every angle. But there is nothing wrong with that. He moved because it was a shot on goal and he couldn't do anything else but move or it would have hit him. I find that a little more belivable than considering he purposely blocked the keepers vision then made a let move to trick him. Simply over doing it. You'll need a better reason than being in the stadium before I start buying that baloney.

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


Sorry no kebabs for sale..in fact the facilities were horrible ... the line up in the ONE food stand was ridiculous.

Well that is an absolute outrage

 

[IncuboRossonero]

Paul, you ever been to Ataturk Stadium in Istanbul??

I don't know if its the spoiled American in me but it was just not up to par efficiency and organization wise...

Transportation, Hotels, Food was just inadequate for the number of people and the prices were through the roof .. I paid less for a meal in Central London which everyone claims is $$

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++

Baggio has dived...Shevchenko has dived..Del Piero has dived and even Van Basten has dived....please don't tell me that 'diving' is beyond Gerrard...

No its not... Ive seen stevie dive... theres not a player alive that in certain situations wont take a dive for their team.

What i do know about stevie is that in that particular position there is no way on earth he goes down... hes not a player to go down when theres even the smallest chance he can break the net.

If he doesnt think he has a hope or if he cant pick some one else out... i have no doubt at times he would dive... but no way in that position

 

[Seven]

++ [ originally posted by jaecole ] ++


Of course he moved away from the ball, I can see that from every angle. But there is nothing wrong with that. He moved because it was a shot on goal and he couldn't do anything else but move or it would have hit him. I find that a little more belivable than considering he purposely blocked the keepers vision then made a let move to trick him. Simply over doing it. You'll need a better reason than being in the stadium before I start buying that baloney.



Well that is an absolute outrage

It's not about whether he did it intentionally or not. Did he block Dida's view? Yes. Was he in an offside position? Yes.

No goal, Jae .

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


Don't want to sound like an old fart but back in the day Italy produced Baresi's...Scirea's....Maldini's.....Del Piero's and Baggio's...

today we have Totti's and Cassano's...

I'm sure you see what I mean....

Indeed... and im not saying you see it tomorrow... but you will in time

I know it hurts ive been on the losing end often enough ( ive attended 3 losing cl finals for a start) and seen greats go without what they deserved... but sometime in the future it allways comes back... especially for followers of great teams like milan and juve.

Look at liverpool... 20 years since their glory ended and now they are back winning the european cup and laying the foundations to return in time to their rightful place at the head of english football

 

[jaecole]

++ [ originally posted by Seven ] ++


It's not about whether he did it intentionally or not. Did he block Dida's view? Yes. Was he in an offside position? Yes.

No goal, Jae .

I don't think he blocked his view. Dida moved instantly, Dida got to the ball, Dida made a lousy half assed attempt of a save.

Goal

 

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


The offside flag being UP was NEVER shown on t.v. We in the stands saw it....

Milan Baros and the other Pool player being offside on the second goal is CRYSTAL CLEAR having an elevated view in the stands....I could also CLEARLY see that Baros was toying with Dida in hindering his view and suggesting he might deflect it in: Good strategy however, he was PASSIVELY offside.

The Gerrard fall I noticed on t.v. that night: he was not as clear as people suggest: Cafu was to his right and Stam a foot to his left .. his angle was quite small and he had not even lined up for the shot.
Looking at Gattuso's feet and his they never collided and Gattuso never took a stutter step to trip him.

TBH, we all clearly saw Baros move his hand away from the ball, but I doubt he was intentionally blocking the view. He just moved out of the way as to not get hit by the ball. But yes, he was in an offside position and partially blocking Dida's view, but IMO very few refs would dissallow the goal, unless the player was very close to the keeper.

++ [ originally posted by jaecole ] ++
Can't believe you consider the baros thing to rule a goal illegal. When has that ever been the case? You are looking too hard for excuses. And again, why not talk about Maldinis hand 'foul'? Surely there is more to call in that than in the Baros incident? Don't forget the counter of that error resulted in a goal for Milan. It's very easy to make up excuses.

I dont think that was a penalty. Had it not hit his hand it would have hit his body. If you ask me, Garcia looked like an idiot there, Nesta (was it Nesta?) went in for the tackl and was on the ground a full second before the ball hit him, Garcia could have chosen which way to go and pass him. He could have chipped the ball over him, but instead he chose to look like and idion and go for the penalty.

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
Well if Baros was indeed in an offsides position, and obstructed the view of Dida, that is considered interfering with play. If that was the case, the goal should have been called back.

Didn't the same thing happen with Milan against us in the 2003 Final? Inzaghi was offside and interfering with play, so the ref called the goal back.

And IIRC, Nick had a different view of the rule at the time.

 

[Bjerknes]

I just watched the penalty again, and I must say the way Gerrard's knees gave out and how he dragged his feet on the ground really makes it look like a dive. If Gattuso did anything at all to Gerrard it wouldn't make the latter's knees give out like that, and a trip would have made Gerrard's feet go up, not drag across the ground.

I'm sorry but saying Gerrard is not a diver is rubbish in this case. That was a clear dive.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++




TBH, we all clearly saw Baros move his hand away from the ball, but I doubt he was intentionally blocking the view. He just moved out of the way as to not get hit by the ball. But yes, he was in an offside position and partially blocking Dida's view, but IMO very few refs would dissallow the goal, unless the player was very close to the keeper.

Does not make it right. Anyways, I want to be clear:

Liverpool did not ROB anything.
Milan was not ROBBED of anything.
Not many teams could come back from a 3-0 deficit like this after 45 minutes...a team full of primadonna's certainly cannot not: i.e. Roma and Inter.
That said....as I stated it takes perserverance (which they had) heart (which they had) a leader (which they really had) and a bit of luck i.e. calls going your way: not flagrant calls but enough to keep the spirit alive.

I still believe Milan played a MUCH better game despite allowing Liverpool to score 3 goals (which again were the only TESTS for Dida; he failed miserably).

By the way,

No one can really criticize Ancelotti's selection for the PK because it worked against Juve i.e the guys who scored or usually score in PK did not that day (Serginho and Pirlo): happens all the time:
Albertini at a time was the PK specialist then he missed for Italy ...
Baggio was a specialist..then we all know what happened...
Costacurta believe it or not had a spotless record for a while and then against Boca he kicked the dirt rather than the ball..

I thought Pirlo looked "drained" towards the end and really discouraged...as did Sheva...
easy to say now but perhaps a Cafu or Stam would have been better ...

whatever

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by jaecole ] ++


I don't think he blocked his view. Dida moved instantly, Dida got to the ball, Dida made a lousy half assed attempt of a save.

Goal

thanks for reminding me :groan: