Nick Against the World (50 Viewers)

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

I tend to agree with you there. It does look rather suspicious. The reasons given for not taking the test seem really unsatisfactory.

I really don't agree. Players NEVER give reasons. Rio never gave a reason. Juve never gave a reason why the players blood sampes were all contaminated....
Since the system is not mandatory its no surprise its a cesspool of germs in the room with people coming and going like a press conference.

 

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[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
I really don't agree. Players NEVER give reasons. Rio never gave a reason. Juve never gave a reason why the players blood sampes were all contaminated....
Since the system is not mandatory its no surprise its a cesspool of germs in the room with people coming and going like a press conference.

Rio gave a reason alright, though it was even weaker than Gatusso's. Frankly it's not good enough to say that you were tired and the place was busy (which has been denied?). Oh, to heck with it all - I'm tired and I'm going home.

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


I really don't agree. Players NEVER give reasons. Rio never gave a reason. Juve never gave a reason why the players blood sampes were all contaminated....

Well... they did really...

Rino said the place was a mess and like a barnyard

Rio said he was pre-occupied with his house move on that day and jus plain forgot as he was told he had to be tested after training some 4 hours before the test time... and in his 'forgetfulness' after 4 hours he simply forgot and left the training ground without thinking

The juve blood samples (if your talking about the ones i think you are) were contaminated due to incorrect storage at the lab.... Something like Tyler Hamiltons contaminated b test (after 3 other tests had allready shown up positive) which was ruined as some idiot deep froze it at the lab rather than refrigerated it as such he gets to keep his medal.. though justice will be served on that individual

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


The radio kept saying today that EPO can be detected in URINE (I am far from an expert in anything scientific so I will believe Vin and Paul).

As i said ... it can, but only for a very short time (much less than its effective time). It has also been shown to be easy to get around. The blood test is the only true test.

The 48 hour delay..everyone mentioned it today but some experts said the "HARD STUFF" would still be in his system and it is the small stuff that would not.

That has been shown incorrect... EPO and hgh along with most other drugs widely used by sports people can be masked with certain agents and also diluted to undetectable levels by way of a simple saline drip and excessive water intake.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

I had not fully read your post and assumed you concurred with Vinman on EPO.
As for the 48 delay..like I said .. i have no clue so I will not say.

The system might as well be mandatory because in essence you don't have a choice: not mandatory but if you say "NO" then you will make headlines and speculations and assumptions will be made.

Rino perhaps not being the brightest 'bulb' in the pack didn't realize that saying no would result in a sh*tstorm of bad press: he asked "is it mandatory?" "NO" f*** it then. I'm going to bed.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

Rio gave a reason alright, though it was even weaker than Gatusso's. Frankly it's not good enough to say that you were tired and the place was busy (which has been denied?). Oh, to heck with it all - I'm tired and I'm going home.

so what you are saying is there is no excuse. Even if it is mandatory there is in essence no excuse as to why you shouldn't take it.

well then...why is it optional at all.. by your rationale if you don't take it then your probably guilty.

 

[flieeeekke]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
I had not fully read your post and assumed you concurred with Vinman on EPO.
As for the 48 delay..like I said .. i have no clue so I will not say.

The system might as well be mandatory because in essence you don't have a choice: not mandatory but if you say "NO" then you will make headlines and speculations and assumptions will be made.

Rino perhaps not being the brightest 'bulb' in the pack didn't realize that saying no would result in a sh*tstorm of bad press: he asked "is it mandatory?" "NO" f*** it then. I'm going to bed.

when he talks he usually makes more sence than his colleagues, so he isnt that dumb i guss.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
well then...why is it optional at all.. by your rationale if you don't take it then your probably guilty.

That's the system that got Rio banned, correctly methinks. There's no point in saying "Here, you don't have to take our most effective test if you don't want to," because people who want not to take the test are really not the kind you want not taking the test. The system as it stands is a joke. Did I read (here or in another thread) that they're making these tests manditary in future seasons?

 

[Dr-Juve]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Why yes of course I can see the difference, however what Cafu did on that tackle was terrible. That was a two-footed challenge in which Cafu went metal-studs up on Cufre, catching him below the knee. Now tell me what is worse; a player recieving a season-ending injury from a nasty tackle or a goal being disallowed because of a handball. Surely you can see the dfference there. Cafu should have been "expulsione-d" and that could have changed Milan's night for the worse.

I'm not biacthing about the calls because we get our fair share of those as well. I just wanted to make a point to all the Juventus detractors that indeed we're not the only club getting all the calls or non-calls.

Indeed, if Gattuso had made that tackle he would have been off. What else does Cafu have to do to get a red? Resort to spitting his chewing gum at Cufre? Equal standards.




I just think if Totti wouldn't be such a douche on the pitch he would be a much better player. Furthermore all of his fellow Romanisti, especially the supporters, follow his lead and that is certainly not very good. I think his actions over the past couple years have hurt Roma more than help their cause, turning the club into a circus that, when the big matches come up, does anything but play football.

very classy::thumb:

 

[Vinman]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++

I wouldnt post something on such a subject if it wasnt vinni.




Thats not exactly true Vin... but close.
HGH cannot in anyway shape or form be detected in urine.

Using the old Urine epo test you can detect epo for a very short time... only whilst in a certain state... Using the urine test you can only detect epo for approx 3 days after administration... bearing in mind after a course of treatment of epo the effects peak for in the region of 3 weeks, (and if taken in the correct manor the drug will raise your natural haematocrit level for a very long time.(in the region of 6 months) as long as you continue your normal training routine. not a massive benefit but still a sustained improvement).

Where as the latest blood test will detect epo for upto 3 weeks after administration.

The urine test has also been proven to be easy to get around, It also does not detect many of the current forms of artificial epo

That is what I was referring to...

urine tests are very ineffective with the new evolution of drugs.....

 

[IncuboRossonero]

Maybe its my Milanista biasness..maybe I am being naive...whatever but to me his actions after the fact do not suggest those of someone who has something hide.
He is angry...is going to great lenghts to prove his innocence and is not talking the usual no comment/closed door policy or "talk to my team" approach. He pulled his arm so to speak and yelled "test away". More over, its very plausible that the events he described occured. Urine tests being regulated and mandatory is probably much more organized but seeing as how Blood samples are not mandatory there is probably not that much of a rush to get it done knowing a player will wait even though its not mandatory. (THey are afraid of the backlash).
The events he described and his decision is not uncommon of his behaviour. If you have ever seen him in a press conference he gets easily ticked off with reporters trying to get him to say something "scandalous" or trying to touch a nerve. I remember one particular event in which one reporter kept bagging on him after the Perugia-Milan game because he celebrated by running to the Milan Curva after his goal. The reporter said: "Don't you feel bad that the Perugia people and team supported you becoming the player you are today. Don't you feel bad celebrating like that in front of them?"
He looked around at the other reporters and said "Who is this guy? You causing problems? You wanted me to run up the Perugia fans after scoring AGAINST their team? That would look better? What are you doing here...what are you trying to do to me?"
Some players decline to comment on officiating errors or blatant calls...some players refuse to take shots at other teams but Rino ALWAYS REACTS immediately.
Maybe I am being naive but given what I have seen of him it is very believable given the way he is that after seeing the chaos in the room...being dead tired...getting close to midnight he said "Is this test mandatory?" reply "no"
"Well I'm out of here then..I don't need this sh*t at this time of the night."

That said, if he did take an illegal substance. Show him the door. For the time being I am willing to give him the benefit...

 

[Cronios]

-Depending on how EPO is manufactured, it creates different antibodies. The testing difficulty is logging the signatures of all the different types/origins of EPO. If not all antibodies are assessed, some cheating might be missed. One athlet might have a different signature antibody to another, depending on who manufactured the synthetic EPO. Unless a test can detect all, (and currently only some can be recognized), the test is considered to be unfair.
-A second complicating factor is that introduced EPO only lasts in the body for a short time (as little as 24 hours) but its stimulus effect continues for as long as two weeks. Unless a test is conducted when the EPO is present, for example, one day in fourteen among consistent users, accurate testing will miss it.

The sistem is already very unaccurate, they sould atleast respect a very unefficient test wich is there just to baptise drugged athlets clear.
Gatuso is a prof footballer, he had to past through this test other times too.

so here comes some tricky questions:

-why now(this is a very important month for milan for CL+SCUD, everyone esp a based on power, player like gat sould give his maximum now, did he took a bigger dose or the test was able this time to detect the epo he had?)
-why gattuso? (since he isnt so smart, he is the one, who did all this just to protest an unefficient sistem? (or he was ordered by his doc not to have this test now if he would be called to do it?
just because his doc new gat has now high concentration or the test was able now to detect him?)
-what about the reborn in milan pancaro, he was also bored?
-from what i know, in almost all europe they supposed to pick up 2players from every team to make a test aftermatch,
gattuso and pancaro arent animals but the other two are?
-as for Groth Hormon, athlets now tend to use
Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG), does this appears on an urine test? Guess?

Anyways it will be forgotten soon,
berlu is big enough to cover it, just imagine what it would be if this was happening in two juve players!!!
trials with ex juve players accused, corpses out to light once again, zeman comments etc etc

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Cronios ] ++
berlu is big enough to cover it, just imagine what it would be if this was happening in two juve players!!!
trials with ex juve players accused, corpses out to light once again, zeman comments etc etc

You are comparing apples and oranges buddy. There was more than enough evidence to warrant a trial based on the "Agricola cocktails" (Juve's team doctor) and based on player blood results, urine samples, iron levels, expert testimony and testimony it was proven that something was being administered.
who you can compare that to a player refusing an OPTIONAL blood test is beyond me.
If this happened to two Juve players it is normal the backlash would be greater..WHY? Because at one time the team doctor administered banned substances to its players.
No one had a definite answers as to explain all this results and findings. You are basically going against one of the most fundamental rights: innocent until proven guilty. In this case we are not even at that stage because the test was optional..a urine test was submitted...a blood test was later adhered to.

 

[The Pado]

I don't think anyone can criticise the Milan players because they have violated no rules at all. If the FIGC makes the test optional, then that means players have the not only the option to refuse, but also the RIGHT to refuse. If Italy wants to someday, eventually, get serious about doping in football, then certain random screens will be made mandatory.

Italy was among the first to institute mandatory urine samples, but has not kept up with the times. Cheats are getting smarter every day. I must also point out that not one single Juventus player failed a doping test during the 1994-98 period covered by the trial.

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Cronios ] ++
-Depending on how EPO is manufactured, it creates different antibodies. The testing difficulty is logging the signatures of all the different types/origins of EPO. If not all antibodies are assessed, some cheating might be missed. One athlet might have a different signature antibody to another, depending on who manufactured the synthetic EPO. Unless a test can detect all, (and currently only some can be recognized), the test is considered to be unfair.
-A second complicating factor is that introduced EPO only lasts in the body for a short time (as little as 24 hours) but its stimulus effect continues for as long as two weeks. Unless a test is conducted when the EPO is present, for example, one day in fourteen among consistent users, accurate testing will miss it.

The sistem is already very unaccurate, they sould atleast respect a very unefficient test wich is there just to baptise drugged athlets clear.

Nice... but that info is so out of date its untrue

 

[Respaul]

++ [ originally posted by Padovano ] ++
I must also point out that not one single Juventus player failed a doping test during the 1994-98 period covered by the trial.

Robert, that little fact is completely irrelevent...

The drugs we are accused of using are EPO and forms of HGH.

The EPO test was first introduced by the UCI late in 1998 and not used in football until 2002 so there is no way in the world our players could have failed a test in that time as the very first test... was introduced after the in question 97/98 season.

The very first HGH test was introduced by the UCI at the back end of last year. This test is not used in football and probably wont be for another couple of years... So again we could not fail the test as it was non-existent.

On top of that our samples were contaminated and as such could not be submitted to delayed testing once the tests were available.


As for the idea of not failing a test means your innocent... Thats not true either... there are so many ways around these tests.

Please... And i recomend this to everyone... Get hold of a copy of a book called breaking the chain by willy voet.

This is a short easy to read book (take you a couple of hours to read) which will blow your mind as to drugs and drug test avoidance.

For those that dont know... Willy Voet was the chief Soignuer for festina up until 1998 when he was caught transporting huge quantities of EPO across the border into france... He was subsequently hung out to dry by the sporting world... This is his story about life administrating drugs to athletes at the highest level and protecting them from the testers.

 

[The Pado]

Come on Paul, let me have a little fun with our red & black little monkey boy.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Padovano ] ++
I don't think anyone can criticise the Milan players because they have violated no rules at all. If the FIGC makes the test optional, then that means players have the not only the option to refuse, but also the RIGHT to refuse. If Italy wants to someday, eventually, get serious about doping in football, then certain random screens will be made mandatory.

Italy was among the first to institute mandatory urine samples, but has not kept up with the times. Cheats are getting smarter every day. I must also point out that not one single Juventus player failed a doping test during the 1994-98 period covered by the trial.

++ [ originally posted by Padovano ] ++


Italy was among the first to institute mandatory urine samples, but has not kept up with the times. Cheats are getting smarter every day. I must also point out that not one single Juventus player failed a doping test during the 1994-98 period covered by the trial.

did they have mandatory tests back then after the match? (I don't know .. not asking with a PRICK-ISH tone).

Yet tests established abnormal levels of iron in their blood and then some (prick-ish tone).

Players readily admitted that cocktails a-la Agricola were handed out like Mai Tai's in Club Med. (very prick-ish tone).

Kev..you still think it was a conspiracy???! :cheesy:

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


Robert, that little fact is completely irrelevent...

The drugs we are accused of using are EPO and forms of HGH.

The EPO test was first introduced by the UCI late in 1998 and not used in football until 2002 so there is no way in the world our players could have failed a test in that time as the very first test... was introduced after the in question 97/98 season.

The very first HGH test was introduced by the UCI at the back end of last year. This test is not used in football and probably wont be for another couple of years... So again we could not fail the test as it was non-existent.

On top of that our samples were contaminated and as such could not be submitted to delayed testing once the tests were available.


As for the idea of not failing a test means your innocent... Thats not true either... there are so many ways around these tests.

Please... And i recomend this to everyone... Get hold of a copy of a book called breaking the chain by willy voet.

This is a short easy to read book (take you a couple of hours to read) which will blow your mind as to drugs and drug test avoidance.

For those that dont know... Willy Voet was the chief Soignuer for festina up until 1998 when he was caught transporting huge quantities of EPO across the border into france... He was subsequently hung out to dry by the sporting world... This is his story about life administrating drugs to athletes at the highest level and protecting them from the testers.

Where can I get a copy Paulie? (is it your typical Amazon order-in-day book?)

 

[Vinman]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


Robert, that little fact is completely irrelevent...

The drugs we are accused of using are EPO and forms of HGH.

The EPO test was first introduced by the UCI late in 1998 and not used in football until 2002 so there is no way in the world our players could have failed a test in that time as the very first test... was introduced after the in question 97/98 season.

The very first HGH test was introduced by the UCI at the back end of last year. This test is not used in football and probably wont be for another couple of years... So again we could not fail the test as it was non-existent.

On top of that our samples were contaminated and as such could not be submitted to delayed testing once the tests were available.


As for the idea of not failing a test means your innocent... Thats not true either... there are so many ways around these tests.

Please... And i recomend this to everyone... Get hold of a copy of a book called breaking the chain by willy voet.

This is a short easy to read book (take you a couple of hours to read) which will blow your mind as to drugs and drug test avoidance.

For those that dont know... Willy Voet was the chief Soignuer for festina up until 1998 when he was caught transporting huge quantities of EPO across the border into france... He was subsequently hung out to dry by the sporting world... This is his story about life administrating drugs to athletes at the highest level and protecting them from the testers .

Thats pretty much what is going on in this country right now, with Dr. Victor Conte and the whole BALCO fiasco