'Murica! (245 Viewers)

Siamak

╭∩╮( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
Aug 13, 2013
18,341
The U.S. has been toying with a more “gradual” tipping point to escape Afghanistan for multiple presidencies. One of the reasons that always failed is because Afghan tribal loyalties pivot to whomever they see in power once a U.S. pullout is announced - regardless of timeline.

As much of a disaster as the pullout was, I’m not sure it would have ever been possible to handle it more slowly. Every time the U.S. did that, they had to go back in with more troops than they started with to clean the mess up (under Obama, etc.).
It was Trump's original orders but ultimately it was Biden who pull the trigger on the withdrawal. Trump's plan was a phased, conditions based withdrawal but Biden executed an unconditional retreat, a complete mess to make it a glorious end to the war under Biden name.
 

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swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,749
It was Trump's original orders but ultimately it was Biden who pull the trigger on the withdrawal. Trump's plan was a phased, conditions based withdrawal but Biden executed an unconditional retreat, a complete mess to make it a glorious end to the war under Biden name.
Conditions-based is completely the right way. I’m just not convinced that Afghani tribes would hold off on picking new winners and continuing to aid U.S. interests for much of any time longer if the end target was the same.

The few who are loyal to a sinking ship end up drowning.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
Conditions-based is completely the right way. I’m just not convinced that Afghani tribes would hold off on picking new winners and continuing to aid U.S. interests for much of any time longer if the end target was the same.

The few who are loyal to a sinking ship end up drowning.
Is it?

People are quick to blame the US for whatever happened in Afghanistan, but it's not as if they invaded a stable democracy. The US didn't bring the Taliban with them. And is any occupier really to blame for what happens to a country, when they leave? This kind of discourse has become bon ton after the deconolization, but it always struck a nerve with me. Imagine the British holding Rome accountable for their problems after the Romans left.

If you're occupying a country, your primary responsability is to leave.
 

Siamak

╭∩╮( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
Aug 13, 2013
18,341
Conditions-based is completely the right way. I’m just not convinced that Afghani tribes would hold off on picking new winners and continuing to aid U.S. interests for much of any time longer if the end target was the same.

The few who are loyal to a sinking ship end up drowning.
Afghans are strongly religious and support religious extremism, most of them were happy for Taliban to gain control to get rid of the American influence/presence in the region. Im originally from a city in Iran that is on the border between Iran and Afghanistan. No matter what they want/support/think but now that Afghan has falling to the Taliban and chaos is happening and fingers are being pointed at Biden.
 

Ronn

Mes Que Un Club
May 3, 2012
20,865
Conditions-based is completely the right way. I’m just not convinced that Afghani tribes would hold off on picking new winners and continuing to aid U.S. interests for much of any time longer if the end target was the same.

The few who are loyal to a sinking ship end up drowning.
Afghan: native inhabitant of Afghanistan
Afghani: their currency
 

Siamak

╭∩╮( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
Aug 13, 2013
18,341
Is it?

People are quick to blame the US for whatever happened in Afghanistan, but it's not as if they invaded a stable democracy. The US didn't bring the Taliban with them. And is any occupier really to blame for what happens to a country, when they leave? This kind of discourse has become bon ton after the deconolization, but it always struck a nerve with me. Imagine the British holding Rome accountable for their problems after the Romans left.

If you're occupying a country, your primary responsability is to leave.
Am I really that naive? or were the Americans supposed to stay there forever? But We're talking about Biden Administration and the decision on execute Trump plan which was an organized withdraw, not this unconditional surrender. They left tons of war weapons behind and handed over to the Taliban. US did it intentionally to put the region in the risk of further destruction.
 
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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
Am I really that naive? or were the Americans supposed to stay there forever? But We're talking about Biden Administration and the decision on execute Trump plan which was an organized withdraw, not this unconditional surrender. They left tons of war weapons behind and handed over to the Taliban. US intentionally did it to put the region in the risk of further destruction.
I understand your point and perhaps the US could have handled things better. But the reality is that Afghanistan was in turmoil long before the US invaded and it wasn't even stable during the American presence. For as long as the Americans were there Afghans fled the country and were, at times, awarded refugee status.

Earlier you stated this:

Afghans are strongly religious and support religious extremism, most of them were happy for Taliban to gain control to get rid of the American influence/presence in the region. Im originally from a city in Iran that is on the border between Iran and Afghanistan. No matter what they want/support/think but now that Afghan has falling to the Taliban and chaos is happening and fingers are being pointed at Biden.
So maybe it's on Afghans themselves?
 

Siamak

╭∩╮( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
Aug 13, 2013
18,341
I understand your point and perhaps the US could have handled things better. But the reality is that Afghanistan was in turmoil long before the US invaded and it wasn't even stable during the American presence. For as long as the Americans were there Afghans fled the country and were, at times, awarded refugee status.

Earlier you stated this:



So maybe it's on Afghans themselves?
Not all of them, a few of Afghans themsalves are a part of the problem, to help Terror Organizations total control over them. but Soviet were the ones who put the taliban in power to begin with.
Since then Afghanistan is controlled by religious fundamentalist. In secular reign before the Soviet invade, Afghanistan was experiencing rapid economic growth and was in the process of developing an independent economic policy separate from the west.
Note: I don't blame any western countries for what has been happened in Middle East, It's people who should change their fate.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,749
These hearings have value and hold people accountable.

But they also have as a downside that they are essentially interrogations by people who have no real world knowledge of the subject at hand, but believe they know it all because they are blessed with hindsight.
To hold people accountable, yes. But it is also grandstanding for the cameras by people who are generally out of their league with internal knowledge as you say -- think of the embarrassing first Congressional hearings with Mark Zuckerberg where he was like a grandson teaching his grandparents to set their VCR clocks to something other than "00:00".

Worse there is this René Girard-like ritualistic violence committed against a chosen blood sacrifice / scapegoat, as if the blood of the lamb washes away all sins and everyone can go back to normal life believing the problem is solved.

But systemic problems are embedded in the organization. Organizations evolve personalities and wills of their own, regardless of who is in them. Plucking out individuals, even at the top, doesn't kill it like cutting off a snake's head. Ironically, some have used the "Deep State" as a way to describe this phenomenon. But it's in every self-sustaining organization.

People love the voodoo ritualistic head-cutting. But do we really believe that X would be a non-toxic place of social discourse if they fired Elon Musk? It's absurd. But everyone acts along in the play like this is how it works.

The problem with Vance is mostly that he doesn't really stand for anything.

That was already a major problem for Trump. He doesn't really have a true ideology (remember he donated to Democratic candidates in the past) and he just tries to go with the flow. Often without having any real knowledge of whatever subject he's talking about. Mostly it seems his speeches boil down to "Democrats bad". They've added to that with Vance, whose biography definitely reads like that of a man who'll say and do whatever if it benefits him.

What Vance has going for him is that, unlike Trump, he does have real personal achievements to his name. He served as a marine, he graduated Yale Law School, he wrote a best seller. You can make of him what you want, but those are not easy things to achieve. The people who care about stuff like that are not going to vote for Trump though.
I read this today and I think it has a much closer take on Vance: https://www.thebulwark.com/p/vance-galaxy-brained-style-american-politics

It's The Bulwark, so it's going to be anti-Trump. But it's conservative-based and not trans/reparations/lefty stuff.

Vance perhaps thinks too much. And perhaps Trump sought him out because he seemed like a smart guy and deep thinker half his age for credibility while he mumbles about boats, batteries, and sharks to his adoring public. But Vance's ideas are a bit cryptic and, well, creepy.

That article also turned me on to this: the Jock/Creep theory of fascism: https://www.unpopularfront.news/p/the-jockcreep-theory-of-fascism

Funny take, but not entirely inaccurate. The short of it is Mussolini was more "Jock-Douche” vibes while Nazism was more “Creep-Loser”, and Vance falls into the latter.

It makes sense that a man with socially detached, almost conspiratorial ideas would see any means to power to act on them. So naturally he flipped on Trump at the chance.

Afghans are strongly religious and support religious extremism, most of them were happy for Taliban to gain control to get rid of the American influence/presence in the region. Im originally from a city in Iran that is on the border between Iran and Afghanistan. No matter what they want/support/think but now that Afghan has falling to the Taliban and chaos is happening and fingers are being pointed at Biden.
So it's kind of like the Trump mantra of whomever was the last president (or source of power) was the worst in history and all fingers point to them.

Side note: I do have to credit Trump from going from Obama as the worst president in history to Biden being worse than the 10 worst US presidents combined. Unfortunately that might be the last we will likely hear that one, as Kamala is now the target. She will be soon known as worse than the worst 100 U.S. vice presidents combined.

Afghan: native inhabitant of Afghanistan
Afghani: their currency
Good catch... thank you, sir. :hi:

Am I really that naive? or were the Americans supposed to stay there forever? But We're talking about Biden Administration and the decision on execute Trump plan which was an organized withdraw, not this unconditional surrender. They left tons of war weapons behind and handed over to the Taliban. US did it intentionally to put the region in the risk of further destruction.
From what I read, the organized withdrawal deteriorated excessively fast. As soon as they knew the U.S. was pulling back, working allies immediately switched sides to avoid being murdered by the Taliban and the Taliban got emboldened to run the Americans out asap for good.

Not saying it couldn't have been done better. But the bottom of any local support completely fell out within hours if not days.

Dude you are behind with your news: I heard a year or so ago that Biden had already died and the image of we saw on TV was actually a hologram of him.
Now we're talking!
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
That bulwark article was an interesting read Greg. And also kinda disturbing in a sad way.
Vance's entire problem is that he is disturbing to everyone including Trump's traditional voters, who do care about loyalty. There's no real coming back from comparing Trump to Hitler. That will always cast a doubt on why you are suddenly running for VP alongside with him. And he has an immigrant wife, which is hard to reconcile with the opinions of most of those voters as well.

I think Trump is well and truly fucked. I'd be very surprised if this doesn't turn out as one of the worst electoral defeats of all time.
 
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Badass J Elkann

It's time to go!!
Feb 12, 2006
68,904
https://www.barrons.com/news/trump-...ion-stance-means-execution-of-babies-5d663f0e

Harris wants to execute babies? Really? That's what Trump is going for?
This is Trump who thinks the Democrats believe in aborting babies that are 9 months into pregnancy :lol:
They are really desperate to find anything and everything on Harris, but she's clean and it's causing Trump and co into meltdown. Trump appointing Vance as VP could well be the final nail in the coffin, I expect Harris (assuming she will top the ticket) will be more wise in her pick as VP which will be crucial in winning some key swing states.

I think it's still early days to think this will be a landslide win for Harris, with Trump he will try every trick in the book to stay in the race and that's what worries me.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
That’s not a new line. Christian right folks call pro-choice politicians baby murderers for as long as I can remember.
It's not about abortion.

Trump said Harris wants to kill babies after they are born.

- - - Updated - - -

This is Trump who thinks the Democrats believe in aborting babies that are 9 months into pregnancy :lol:
They are really desperate to find anything and everything on Harris, but she's clean and it's causing Trump and co into meltdown. Trump appointing Vance as VP could well be the final nail in the coffin, I expect Harris (assuming she will top the ticket) will be more wise in her pick as VP which will be crucial in winning some key swing states.

I think it's still early days to think this will be a landslide win for Harris, with Trump he will try every trick in the book to stay in the race and that's what worries me.

He will, but I don't think there's a lot he can do to draw new supporters.

Look at people like @Bjerknes for example. He voted for Trump in 2016 based on a couple of arguments and he probably does like the promises of fewer taxes and more jobs, but he's not necessarily a blind member of the cult. I expect this category of people to be quite broad. Trump has done a lot in the last few years to alienate those voters:

- First off he's a rapist. Regardless of everything else, voting for a rapist is a tough pill to swallow if you're somewhat reasonable.
- Then there's the right to abortion. Trump is backtracking heavily these days, but he's the guy that made repealing Roe v Wade a reality. The vast majority of Americans are pro choice.
- He clearly lost the 2020 elections fair and square, but refused to leave office peacefully. That's probably one of the most heinous crimes against democracy one can commit.

He doesn't counter any of that with a real plan or ideology. His campaign was all about Biden and his age, but now Trump is the older candidate. The closest thing to an ideology is Project 2025, but few Americans are enthusiastic about installing Gilead. And upon realizing as much Trump initially tried to distance himself, but then he appointed JD Vance as his running mate and Vance is clearly all about Project 2025.

And then there's the elephant in the room: everyone knows he lies his pants off. He could say nasty stuff about Harris, true. But, considering the source, what reasonable person is going to think it's credible? If anything it probably makes Harris look better.
 
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Ronn

Mes Que Un Club
May 3, 2012
20,865
It's not about abortion.

Trump said Harris wants to kill babies after they are born.

- - - Updated - - -




He will, but I don't think there's a lot he can do to draw new supporters.

Look at people like @Bjerknes for example. He voted for Trump in 2016 based on a couple of arguments and he probably does like the promises of fewer taxes and more jobs, but he's not necessarily a blind member of the cult. I expect this category of people to be quite broad. Trump has done a lot in the last few years to alienate those voters:

- First off he's a rapist. Regardless of everything else, voting for a rapist is a tough pill to swallow if you're somewhat reasonable.
- Then there's the right to abortion. Trump is backtracking heavily these days, but he's the guy that made repealing Roe v Wade a reality. The vast majority of Americans are pro choice.
- He clearly lost the 2020 elections fair and square, but refused to leave office peacefully. That's probably one of the most heinous crimes against democracy one can commit.

He doesn't counter any of that with a real plan or ideology. His campaign was all about Biden and his age, but now Trump is the older candidate. The closest thing to an ideology is Project 2025, but few Americans are enthusiastic about installing Gilead. And upon realizing as much Trump initially tried to distance himself, but then he appointed JD Vance as his running mate and Vance is clearly all about Project 2025.

And then there's the elephant in the room: everyone knows he lies his pants off. He could say nasty stuff about Harris, true. But, considering the source, what reasonable person is going to think it's credible? If anything it probably makes Harris look better.
He takes her stance on abortion and exaggerates it ten-fold.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
He takes her stance on abortion and exaggerates it ten-fold.
Yes.

But you can call someone who is pro abortion a murderer as a form of hyperbole. That is, in reality, how it has been used by the pro life movement.

Killing a baby that is already born is a different category entirely. That would constitute straight up actual murder. I don't think anyone who is in their right mind believes Harris, as a former DA, has no issues with killing children. Accusing her of infanticide reeks of desperation.
 

Ronn

Mes Que Un Club
May 3, 2012
20,865
Yes.

But you can call someone who is pro abortion a murderer as a form of hyperbole. That is, in reality, how it has been used by the pro life movement.

Killing a baby that is already born is a different category entirely. That would constitute straight up actual murder. I don't think anyone who is in their right mind believes Harris, as a former DA, has no issues with killing children. Accusing her of infanticide reeks of desperation.
It’s a Trump rally. They cheer for him even if he says Harris has 5 penises.
 

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