'Murica! (240 Viewers)

Seven

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
#2,922
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
#2,922
Ocelot said:
As far as I know (documentary in school a few years back), the officer/official responsible was officially convicted but didn't actually get any punishment.

Link doesn't work btw

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Oh wait, it does
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You can see the Court struggled to sort of justify it though.

" In the light of the foregoing, the Court considers that it was the
applicant’s second confession at the trial which – alone or corroborated by
further untainted real evidence – formed the basis of his conviction for
murder and kidnapping with extortion and his sentence. The impugned real
evidence was not necessary, and was not used to prove him guilty or to
determine his sentence. It can thus be said that there was a break in the
causal chain leading from the prohibited methods of investigation to the
applicant’s conviction and sentence in respect of the impugned real
evidence"

So because he was convicted because of his second confession, not the confession he gave under torture, his conviction was okay... I wonder what they'd have done if he had shut up about the entire case after they found the dead body. According to the ECHR he should not have been convicted in that case.
 
Ocelot

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
#2,923
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
#2,923
https://soundcloud.com/4hunnidrecords/fdt-1

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Seven said:
You can see the Court struggled to sort of justify it though.

" In the light of the foregoing, the Court considers that it was the
applicant’s second confession at the trial which – alone or corroborated by
further untainted real evidence – formed the basis of his conviction for
murder and kidnapping with extortion and his sentence. The impugned real
evidence was not necessary, and was not used to prove him guilty or to
determine his sentence. It can thus be said that there was a break in the
causal chain leading from the prohibited methods of investigation to the
applicant’s conviction and sentence in respect of the impugned real
evidence"

So because he was convicted because of his second confession, not the confession he gave under torture, his conviction was okay... I wonder what they'd have done if he had shut up about the entire case after they found the dead body. According to the ECHR he should not have been convicted in that case.
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Wouldn't there be more than enough evidence anyways, even disregarding that confession? I mean I guss he was arrested for a reason in the first place, wasn't he? Don't remember the specifics of the case, but you'd think you could make a pretty convincing case even if you'd completely disregard the confession in question.
 
Seven

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
#2,924
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
#2,924
Ocelot said:
https://soundcloud.com/4hunnidrecords/fdt-1

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Wouldn't there be more than enough evidence anyways, even disregarding that confession? I mean I guss he was arrested for a reason in the first place, wasn't he? Don't remember the specifics of the case, but you'd think you could make a pretty convincing case even if you'd completely disregard the confession in question.
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No, iirc there wasn't. You have people who are suspects and turn out to have nothing to do with the case, so I assume there was no real proof until they had him.

One of the issues here is that a lot of the material evidence was gathered because of the forced confession. If you can't use the confession in court, you can't use the evidence you gathered because of this confession either (which makes sense if you think about it).
 
Ocelot

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
#2,925
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
#2,925
Seven said:
No, iirc there wasn't. You have people who are suspects and turn out to have nothing to do with the case, so I assume there was no real proof until they had him.

One of the issues here is that a lot of the material evidence was gathered because of the forced confession. If you can't use the confession in court, you can't use the evidence you gathered because of this confession either (which makes sense if you think about it).
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True, didn't think about that.

But still, I think he was more than just a random suspect if they actually threatened him with torture. The officer must've been really really sure of the guy's guilt for some reason or another. Pointless to discuss without knowing the details though :D
 
Seven

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
#2,926
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
#2,926
Ocelot said:
True, didn't think about that.

But still, I think he was more than just a random suspect if they actually threatened him with torture. The officer must've been really really sure of the guy's guilt for some reason or another. Pointless to discuss without knowing the details though :D
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Yeah, we wouldn't really know anyway.

In my experience people are convicted quite a bit faster than you'd expect. The presumption of innocence exists, but only up to a point. Since these were very serious charges though I doubt they rushed through the trial.
 
king Ale

king Ale

Senior Member
#2,929
Oct 28, 2004
21,689
#2,929
Whether or not you agree with him on his take on the first Iraq war, this is one powerful speech. I respect this guy a lot for being so passionate about what he believes in and for having been consistent in standing on the right side of history.

p.s. 2:13.

 
Bjerknes

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
#2,930
Mar 16, 2004
115,940
#2,930
It's not like Bernie is someone who isn't respectable. He has been promoting the same types of issues for decades and you can sense he's passionate about his calling. But while being anti-war, he did vote for the Afghanistan debacle, which shows a lack of understanding of the issue at the time. Nobody is perfect, but Bernie is certainly far from perfect in many aspects of his campaign and political acumen. Moreover, this is the United States and even some Democrats will not vote for him due to his take on the role of government. He also recently stated whites don't know what it's like to be poor, which probably pushed some folks to Hillary.
 
GordoDeCentral

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
#2,931
Apr 14, 2005
70,780
#2,931
Bjerknes said:
It's not like Bernie is someone who isn't respectable. He has been promoting the same types of issues for decades and you can sense he's passionate about his calling. But while being anti-war, he did vote for the Afghanistan debacle, which shows a lack of understanding of the issue at the time. Nobody is perfect, but Bernie is certainly far from perfect in many aspects of his campaign and political acumen. Moreover, this is the United States and even some Democrats will not vote for him due to his take on the role of government. He also recently stated whites don't know what it's like to be poor, which probably pushed some folks to Hillary.
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:tup: out of touch, never got out of the 60s
 
Seven

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
#2,932
Jun 25, 2003
39,318
#2,932
Bjerknes said:
It's not like Bernie is someone who isn't respectable. He has been promoting the same types of issues for decades and you can sense he's passionate about his calling. But while being anti-war, he did vote for the Afghanistan debacle, which shows a lack of understanding of the issue at the time. Nobody is perfect, but Bernie is certainly far from perfect in many aspects of his campaign and political acumen. Moreover, this is the United States and even some Democrats will not vote for him due to his take on the role of government. He also recently stated whites don't know what it's like to be poor, which probably pushed some folks to Hillary.
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He's also 74. I understand this is not a popular argument to make (and Clinton and Trump aren't exactly young either), but you have to wonder exactly how quick he'll be able to respond in times of crisis.

In any case to me he's still the best of a bad bunch. And I guess this Panama thing is going to play in his favour too.
 
Ocelot

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
#2,933
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
#2,933
Seven said:
He's also 74. I understand this is not a popular argument to make (and Clinton and Trump aren't exactly young either), but you have to wonder exactly how quick he'll be able to respond in times of crisis.

In any case to me he's still the best of a bad bunch. And I guess this Panama thing is going to play in his favour too.
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"Predicted" is maybe a bit exaggerated, but still.
 
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