Morality and law (4 Viewers)

[mikhail]

Moral question of the day:
How do you, personally, feel about those places where the laws of your country (or of a country you are visiting), contradict your religion?

For Christians, there are a couple of such subjects which are major hot topics: abortion, divorce, the status of homosexuals... and I don't want to discuss the morality of these. That's been done to death. For Muslims, there have been widely reported problems with dress codes in western Europe. I can't speak for problems in more traditionally Islamic countries, but I don't doubt some exist. Even athiests can get in on this one - religious education of children is child abuse in Dawkins' mind.

What I mean is this: say you're fully satisfied that, say, abortion is wrong, is a sin. But there's an abortion clinic opening in town. It's perfectly legal - they didn't even cheat on their planning application. The law says it's okay. How do you feel about it? Ambivalent? Angry? Other?

Who was it used to end his posts with "Please discuss"? Liu?

 

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[Red]

My indifference knows no bounds.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

agreed

 

[GordoDeCentral]

why would it bother you? how are you personally affected by the abortion clinic across from you?

 

[Ford Prefect]

Moral question of the day:
How do you, personally, feel about those places where the laws of your country (or of a country you are visiting), contradict your religion?

For Christians, there are a couple of such subjects which are major hot topics: abortion, divorce, the status of homosexuals... and I don't want to discuss the morality of these. That's been done to death. For Muslims, there have been widely reported problems with dress codes in western Europe. I can't speak for problems in more traditionally Islamic countries, but I don't doubt some exist. Even athiests can get in on this one - religious education of children is child abuse in Dawkins' mind.

What I mean is this: say you're fully satisfied that, say, abortion is wrong, is a sin. But there's an abortion clinic opening in town. It's perfectly legal - they didn't even cheat on their planning application. The law says it's okay. How do you feel about it? Ambivalent? Angry? Other?

Who was it used to end his posts with "Please discuss"? Liu?

People only choose to be offended, they are never forced to be offended. The only time i would find myself offended by a countries laws is when human rights are being put into major contradiction, ie gay rights in eastern europe, freedom of speech in the middle east. I just wouldnt go to those countries though tbh. On the topic of faith schools. I went to a faith school and i found it to not be as bad as it could have been. We had one church service a term (3 months). We were taught evolutionairy science more than we were taught creationism. Im guessing i was lucky in a lot of cases. I still had a lot of clashes with the staff over my non--belief and their belief and how stupid some of the school rulling was. They essentially didnt believe in athiesm. If you were a muslim, jew, hindu etc.etc. You were allowed to have nothing to do with the christian faith aspects of the school, whereas if you were an athiest you were told to grow up or seen as you were just trying to avoid being religious even though you really were. I think whilst faith schools exist they have to recognise equal rights for athiest etc. I dont agree with their existance full stop, but most importantly during the primary/elementary years as forcing religion on someone that young can be extremely detromental to their future.

 

[mikhail]

People only choose to be offended, they are never forced to be offended.

I don't think it's so simple.

The only time i would find myself offended by a countries laws is when human rights are being put into major contradiction, ie gay rights in eastern europe, freedom of speech in the middle east.

Your "human rights" are a moral structure similar to that offered by a religion. You feel it is reasonable to be offended by a gay man being discriminated against, but for some Christians, it is offensive that a man be gay. Someone's not happy.

I just wouldnt go to those countries though tbh.

That's a cop out. What if you were born there? Or if you had to go there because of your job at some point?

 

[Ford Prefect]

if you want to be like that then there is just no point in having this discussion is there? I live in a country that im not happy in, we no longer have freedom of speech. We arent allowed to say in public that could be deemed to incite hatred,,,which is great as a means to stop rascists taking the streets and protesting against black people, but at the same time it doesnt stop the islamic community protesting and inciting hatred and beyond that it makes people who say that it should be allowed criminals. Whilst i have a choice i wouldnt go to a country that i vehemently disagreed with.

And it is simple, offence is a choice.

 

[mikhail]

if you want to be like that then there is just no point in having this discussion is there?

Like what? I'm not sure what you mean.

I live in a country that im not happy in, we no longer have freedom of speech. We arent allowed to say in public that could be deemed to incite hatred,,,which is great as a means to stop rascists taking the streets and protesting against black people, but at the same time it doesnt stop the islamic community protesting and inciting hatred and beyond that it makes people who say that it should be allowed criminals.

Okay. That seems to bother you. How much?

Whilst i have a choice i wouldnt go to a country that i vehemently disagreed with.

Sure, and most of us are the same. Now, I'm asking what if you don't have a choice? Maybe there's a coup and some nutjob seizes power where you live, and things change a lot. What does it take for you to flat out disobey the law?

And it is simple, offence is a choice.

You think you could choose not to be offended by, say, child molestation? There's certainly a level to my morality which I hold in a fairly intellectual way. This, I think I can keep in check. Somewhere though, there's a line beyond which I couldn't help being offended.

 

[mikhail]

I've changed the thread title to better reflect what I'm trying to get at.

 

[Martin]

And it is simple, offence is a choice.

Whether you're offended by something is not a choice. What is a choice is how you handle being offended. There are people who can't handle it, people who write letters to tv stations for airing some mildly provocative content, people who lobby the UN to treat blasphemy as a crime.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Whether you're offended by something is not a choice. What is a choice is how you handle being offended. There are people who can't handle it, people who write letters to tv stations for airing some mildly provocative content, people who lobby the UN to treat blasphemy as a crime.

It is a choice, you've chosen to make you're morals so that they can be offended and then you have chosen to take what you have viewed as an offence. That is why offence is such a subjective concept because you can never measure it on your own morals and ideologies but everyone has their own views that they have chosen to take on.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Like what? I'm not sure what you mean.


Okay. That seems to bother you. How much?


Sure, and most of us are the same. Now, I'm asking what if you don't have a choice? Maybe there's a coup and some nutjob seizes power where you live, and things change a lot. What does it take for you to flat out disobey the law?


You think you could choose not to be offended by, say, child molestation? There's certainly a level to my morality which I hold in a fairly intellectual way. This, I think I can keep in check. Somewhere though, there's a line beyond which I couldn't help being offended.

I misread what you had said and i thought you were trying to remoce the subjectivity of the subject

It bothers me a lot because it saying that it is ok for one group to do something because they are easily offended by western culture, but its not ok to tell them not to do it. The problem with that subject is that it is far too easy to slip into rascism and xenophobia

I always as a rule of thumb try to remain calm and remain logical and balanced in how i develop my views and opinions. I will always look at the bigger picture as best i can in a situation. But if some nutjob in a coup takes over a hypothetical land in which i was born and tried to bring in a new system of governance which i and the majority of the country take objection too, then i would be first to arms. If i were in the minority, i think i would leave. Politics is about representing the interests of the majority of people and to force my beliefs against a popular system would be morally wrong, because i would be just as bad as the person in power, make sence?

Child Mollestation is a different thing completely. I fear where my arguement on choice falls down, is human nature, imo nature always precedes nurture and therefor that is one thing that we cannot choose. It is in human nature to want to protect those weeker and to defend younger generations. Therefor i think an issue like Child Mollestation could not be viewed in the same light as it goes against human nature to be in support of it. Again it is an issue that different cultures face themselve, the age of consent in mexico is 12, the age of consent in britain is 16 and the age of concent in america is 18, im sure as much as we look down on mexico for theirs being 12, americans would look down on us for having ours at 16

 

[Hist]

I don't think it's so simple.




That's a cop out. What if you were born there? Or if you had to go there because of your job at some point?

I happen to be in a society that i reject everything about (Egypt). In our case, i think the majority would be in favor of a complete Islamic Shari'a based law. The government though is not representative of peoples opinion. The government is in a sense Pro-Israel while most people would Kill Israelis if they see one lol (exaggerated) . That is why security is a huge burden in Sinai as Sharm-El Sheikh, Hurgada and these tourism based cities in Sinai have a lot of Israelis there and the hatred level is REALLY high. Security is also a burden in Cairo as many protests (usually violent) are abundant in number in reaction towards the treaties (economic ones) Egypt do with Israel (trade and shit).

How do i live with it?

I suffer and am usually bashed, made fun of, hated and in some cases almost beaten up for my opinions (especially me being an agnostic). A healthy debate is usually not an option and if it were, it never continues as one.

Also, if my agnosticism is made public for some reason, i would probably get killed even though the Egyptian law does not punish apostates. (but the people do kill apostates, basing their punishment on the Islamic Shari'a Law as Egypt's book of law is a mixture of The french law and the Shari'a).

Leaving the country is not an option (not yet) as i have to do military service (mandatory) for 1-3 years after i graduate from my university.
But i come from a rich family (relative to Egyptian incomes) so as soon as i finish my military services, i should be able to go anywhere i want. I am financially able and i am willing, time (military) is my only constraint..

So in short, i withstand the suffering and respect the laws and morals of the place i live in as much as i can until i find a way out. If i can't, i dunno i'll go crazy and just have to live with it.

 

[Ford Prefect]

If the governement doesnt represent the citizens ideals, why do the citizens elect them? Are they just thick?

And why are you an agnostic?

 

[IrishZebra]

Law is mind without reason. ( Direct translation of what today is Law is Reason Free From Passion)

The Seperation of Church and state is the most fundemental tennant of democracy after the Government being elected by its people.

Also, I refuse to engage with people who do not hold this tennant in the highest regard, if you believe that Religion has a place in law, then you sir/madam are a cancer on this world.

Ill just say this:
“Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose”

Why am I using so many quotes? Is it because I lack a reasoned argument? no, It is for the reason that todebase myself into debating something as inaliable as this would be pointless, fruitless and downright tedious


I anxiously await Martins response

 

[Ford Prefect]

The Seperation of Church and state is the most fundemental of democracy after the Government being elected by its people.

Also, I refuse to engage with people who do not hold this tennant in the highest regard, if you believe that Religion has a place in law, then you sir/madam are a cancer on this world.

Hear Hear

 

[Martin]

Which point do you want a response to?

 

[IrishZebra]

Which point do you want a response to?

I didn't particularly, I was just bracing for impact

 

[Martin]

I'm weirded out by this thread from post #1. I'd think I'd have something to say but I have no response.

 

[IrishZebra]

I'm weirded out by this thread from post #1. I'd think I'd have something to say but I have no response.

My fellow countrymen have that effect.