Massimiliano Allegri (236 Viewers)

[il brutto]

They aren't if you look at matches in all competitions which is what you should do because we don't play only league games. We have conceded the exact same number of goals last 13 games as previous 13, with an easier schedule in the last 13. That is worrying.

Schedule in Serie A had affected this too. 6 of our last 8 games have been bottom half of the table teams. Two games where they weren't we conceded 4 goals. And gave up major risks to Salernitana, Cagliari. Them missing those chances and we not conceding there shows up as a clean sheet, but it is misleading because in another game that is easily a draw.

I'm concentrating on Serie A because it's easier to find the data for that competition and follow the progression we make.

You're heavily altering the data to fit your narrative by removing games. Just look at the raw data and it's easy to see the improvements in numbers. There's a decrease in chances conceded, shots conceded and goals conceded. As I sad you're free to tell any story you want but the fact is that the defence has improved in the past couple of months.

 

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[IlCapitano]

Why are you making shit up? Cagliari had a few good minutes with one single decent chance. We outshot them 15 - 6. They had one single shot on target all match. Possession was 63-37. Salernitana was outshot 18-4. They had 0 shots on target in the match. Possession was 74-26. You also claimed the Genoa game earlier too as one like this. A game we outshot them 26-0. They didn’t even attempt a single shot all match. Possession was 71-29. We would have won all these matches by even more goals with a decent goalscorer in the squad.

On the ropes? Complete BS.

I am not making anything up. Cagliari had Dalbert miss a tap in and Woj produced a WC save on Pedro's header. Both of those chances are better than anything we created during that game, even though we scored two.

Salernitana hit the post at 0-1 for us.

I got mixed up on Genoa/Cagliari games. Point stands.

We’re talking about Serie A alone. He’s including the outlier CL loss to Chelsea which puts an obvious different light on the stats from one single terrible performance. And also taking out the first 3 matches of the season for “individual mistakes”

So you're saying I am using matches in all competitions instead of cherry-picking bottom half of the table teams to mislead my argument? Thank you.

I have been talking about the entirety of the season the entire time btw and only 'eliminated' first 3 games because those didn't have much to do with Allegri's decisions. No matter what he did in those he could've have prevented Woj gifting goals.

 

[Post Ironic]

Yeah I just noticed that. Altering the data by removing bad results from the start of the season but not removing bad results from the second part of the season is bad practice. You're bound to get weird and invalid results if you do that.

Chelsea would be the obvious outlier based on the entire season. The only match we’ve lost by more than a single goal all year. And it skews his 13 game time frames massively.

 

[Vlad]

He was a chameleon, but is he now? Was he his last full season here? Both that season and this one so far he's found one thing and stuck to it. That is my biggest concern.


They aren't if you look at matches in all competitions which is what you should do because we don't play only league games. We have conceded the exact same number of goals last 13 games as previous 13, with an easier schedule in the last 13. That is worrying.

Schedule in Serie A had affected this too. 6 of our last 8 games have been bottom half of the table teams. Two games where they weren't we conceded 4 goals. And gave up major risks to Salernitana, Cagliari. Them missing those chances and we not conceding there shows up as a clean sheet, but it is misleading because in another game that is easily a draw.

Have the other 2 previous coaches solved this problem? How chaotic we looked under Sarri and Pirlo last year? Every time opposition crossed halfway line we looked like we are about to concede. Our backline looked under pressure all the time. Looking at clean sheets and amount of chances allowed, he obviously solved this issue. He brought back defensive solidity and better overall organization. Our build up is more fluid compared to the last few years. The issue remains in attack, but we create a lot of chances. Only we dont have prolific enough forwards to burry them. We lost a guy that guaranteed 30 goals per season. We brought back Kean...

 

[il brutto]

So you're saying I am using matches in all competitions instead of cherry-picking bottom half of the table teams to mislead my argument? Thank you.

I have been talking about the entirety of the season the entire time btw and only 'eliminated' first 3 games because those didn't have much to do with Allegri's decisions. No matter what he did in those he could've have prevented Woj gifting goals.

You're the one who is cherry picking games and altering the data to fit your narrative. What you're claiming is simply wrong.

 

[Post Ironic]

I am not making anything up. Cagliari had Dalbert miss a tap in and Woj produced a WC save on Pedro's header. Both of those chances are better than anything we created during that game, even though we scored two.

Salernitana hit the post at 0-1 for us.

I got mixed up on Genoa/Cagliari games. Point stands.


So you're saying I am using matches in all competitions instead of cherry-picking bottom half of the table teams to mislead my argument? Thank you.

I have been talking about the entirety of the season the entire time btw and only 'eliminated' first 3 games because those didn't have much to do with Allegri's decisions. No matter what he did in those he could've have prevented Woj gifting goals.

insufferable.

And no they weren’t better than anything we created. We also created a half-dozen good chances for their 1. And we scored 2, in both games. And easily could have scored more. A win in both those matches you bitch and cry about was very much deserved. Even the xGoals in both matches shows that. Against Salernitana it was 2.54-0.46 and against Cagliari it was 2.24 -1.13. Which says based on chances created we should have won both games lol

In reality, all that matters is we won both matches, by multiple goals. Carry on with your whining this season though.

 

[IlCapitano]

Have the other 2 previous coaches solved this problem? How chaotic we looked under Sarri and Pirlo last year? Every time opposition crossed halfway line we looked like we are about to concede. Our backline looked under pressure all the time. Looking at clean sheets and amount of chances allowed, he obviously solved this issue. He brought back defensive solidity and better overall organization. Our build up is more fluid compared to the last few years. The issue remains in attack, but we create a lot of chances. Only we dont have prolific enough forwards to burry them. We lost a guy that guaranteed 30 goals per season. We brought back Kean...

They haven't and I never expected them to. I do expect Allegri to do it because of his track record.

I never said we haven't improved in regards to Sarri and Pirlo, but I hold Allegri to a higher standard than that. We have not improved (much) compared to Allegri this year early and now.

 

[Vlad]

They haven't and I never expected them to. I do expect Allegri to do it because of his track record.

I never said we haven't improved in regards to Sarri and Pirlo, but I hold Allegri to a higher standard than that. We have not improved (much) compared to Allegri this year early and now.

Unless Allegri polishes his boots and starts instead of Kean, I cant blame him for all the rued chances so far.

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Defense isnt an issue any longer, we have no issue with controlling most of our matches, creating chances is also very good. So we need better realization.

 

[IlCapitano]

You're the one who is cherry picking games and altering the data to fit your narrative. What you're claiming is simply wrong.

I don't have a narrative, I honestly went into looking up those stats expecting less goals in this other half. I removed first 3 games because it has nothing to do with Allegri's coaching, either way, not because it suits me or anything.

If Woj does some dumb shit next two games for example and we concede multiple goals are you gonna count that as an outlier too? Why is that an outlier but not the start of the season?

Include those games too, doesn't matter. I cannot honestly look at our season and attribute a slightly lesser number of goals now to great coaching more than I can to weaker opponents and randomness when we consistently give up control to lesser opposition.

insufferable.

And no they weren’t better than anything we created. We also created a half-dozen good chances for their 1. And we scored 2, in both games. And easily could have scored more. A win in both those matches you bitch and cry about was very much deserved.

In reality, all that matters is we won both matches, by multiple goals. Carry on with your whining this season though.

Yeah they were, I just looked at highlights of that game. Our chances were Kean post, Kean deflection from Berna's shot and Berna scoring from a tight angle. We didn't have a clear sitter like they did in that game.

Does anyone who doesn't agree with you do anything but 'bitch and cry about'? Are you that incapable of respecting anyone's opinion and replying in normal fashion, especially someone who has been a regular and normal poster for years, not a troll?

I agree we won and that is what matters, but I am talking about sustainability and improvement. If we lost and drew vs Sassuolo and Verona early in the season and won against Cagliari and Salernitana with two clean sheets that indicates improvement, but is it really when the former scored what latter missed? You want to point out those games as we won and that's all it matters but then the Chelsea game when we get spanked is thrown away because that is not Serie A, doesn't matter, whatever.

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Unless Allegri polishes his boots and starts instead of Kean, I cant blame him for all the rued chances so far.

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Defense isnt an issue any longer, we have no issue with controlling most of our matches, creating chances is also very good. So we need better realization.

What chances has Kean rued so far? Better yet, what chances have he and Morata gotten all season? Only big misses I can remember all season were Kean hitting the post vs Cagliari (and he scored later) and then game at home against Malmo.

Last night we didn't create a single clear chance for either Kean or Morata. I can't remember the last time one of them had 1-1 with the GK. Morata vs Milan?

Defense isnt an issue any longer, we have no issue with controlling most of our matches, creating chances is also very good. So we need better realization.

We didn't control shit against Roma, Napoli and Inter. 3 out of our last 4 games. I don't see it.

 

[il brutto]

I don't have a narrative, I honestly went into looking up those stats expecting less goals in this other half. I removed first 3 games because it has nothing to do with Allegri's coaching, either way, not because it suits me or anything.

If Woj does some dumb shit next two games for example and we concede multiple goals are you gonna count that as an outlier too? Why is that an outlier but not the start of the season?

Include those games too, doesn't matter. I cannot honestly look at our season and attribute a slightly lesser number of goals now to great coaching more than I can to weaker opponents and randomness when we consistently give up control to lesser opposition.

Yes but if you want to make reliable conclusions based on data you simply can't just arbitrarily remove certain data points. That is bad practice and skews the results.

Also as @Post Ironic pointed out that if you have the Chelsea game in there you need to understand that with a small sample size, like the one we're dealing with here, it's going to have a big effect in the results.

If I have energy and time I can perhaps at some point draw a trend line as that would remove all these artificial cut off points and it wouldn't overreact to singular bad defensive performances.

 

[Post Ironic]

I don't have a narrative, I honestly went into looking up those stats expecting less goals in this other half. I removed first 3 games because it has nothing to do with Allegri's coaching, either way, not because it suits me or anything.

If Woj does some dumb shit next two games for example and we concede multiple goals are you gonna count that as an outlier too? Why is that an outlier but not the start of the season?

Include those games too, doesn't matter. I cannot honestly look at our season and attribute a slightly lesser number of goals now to great coaching more than I can to weaker opponents and randomness when we consistently give up control to lesser opposition.


Yeah they were, I just looked at highlights of that game. Our chances were Kean post, Kean deflection from Berna's shot and Berna scoring from a tight angle. We didn't have a clear sitter like they did in that game.

Does anyone who doesn't agree with you do anything but 'bitch and cry about'? Are you that incapable of respecting anyone's opinion and replying in normal fashion, especially someone who has been a regular and normal poster for years, not a troll?

I agree we won and that is what matters, but I am talking about sustainability and improvement. If we lost and drew vs Sassuolo and Verona early in the season and won against Cagliari and Salernitana with two clean sheets that indicates improvement, but is it really when the former scored what latter missed? You want to point out those games as we won and that's all it matters but then the Chelsea game when we get spanked is thrown away because that is not Serie A, doesn't matter, whatever.

You are literally bitching and crying about Max in his thread after every match. Not sure what else you want me to call it?

And no, the Sassuolo and Verona matches were not at all similar. We were outplayed in both those matches, or at the very least were not the better side or in control. Even xGoals again shows that. 1.15-1.13 in Sassuolo match and 1.78-1.59 in Verona match. You also neglect to mention we have been missing our two best attackers Dybala and Chiesa for significant periods in the second half of your comparison, while they were playing for almost the entire first part.

Anyways, I’m done. Carry on with your weird agenda this season. No one is saying we have been great this year. Or that Allegri has been great. But we have definitely improved. And the results speak for themselves. Since the initial 4 matches of the season we’re collecting points at a 38 game = 82 point pace and this isn’t a small sample size. It’s 18 matches. We’ve also only conceded 15 goals in that period, which is 31 goals over a full season, much better than the past two.

I see no point in discussing this with you further. You’re seeing only what you want and omitting/ignoring anything that doesn’t suit your narrative.

 

[IlCapitano]

You are literally bitching and crying about Max in his thread after every match. Not sure what else you want me to call it?

And no, the Sassuolo and Verona matches were not at all similar. We were outplayed in both those matches, or at the very least were not the better side or in control. Even xGoals again shows that. 1.15-1.13 in Sassuolo match and 1.78-1.59 in Verona match.

Anyways, I’m done. Carry on with your weird agenda this season. No one is saying we have been great this year. But we have definitely improved. And the results speak for themselves. Since the initial 4 matches of the season we’re collecting points at a 38 game = 82 point pace and this isn’t a small sample size. It’s 18 matches. We’ve also only conceded 15 goals in that period.

I see no point in discussing this with you further. You’re seeing only what you want and omitting/ignoring anything that doesn’t suit your narrative.

No, I am criticizing him for mistakes he makes. I never once bitched 'oh we only won 1-0, Allegri bad'. I am criticizing him for still making the same mistakes he did at the start, which is 100% true. First half of the season I was here making the same arguments as you and brutto, defending Max, but we're 2-3 months removed from that and I cannot honestly make the same argument. In his own words, he needs to improve.

So when you 'eliminate' first 4 matches to point out 'improvement' that is objectivity, but when I do it to point out something else that is agenda?

Lmao, you're funny. You got me there, known anti-Allegri agenda driven narrative from me, right?

Yes but if you want to make reliable conclusions based on data you simply can't just arbitrarily remove certain data points. That is bad practice and skews the results.

Also as @Post Ironic pointed out that if you have the Chelsea game in there you need to understand that with a small sample size, like the one we're dealing with here, it's going to have a big effect in the results.

If I have energy and time I can perhaps at some point draw a trend line as that would remove all these artificial cut off points and it wouldn't overreact to singular bad defensive performances.

Yes, but I do not agree that some comprehensive data collection is going to show we concede less chances or we are improving. Or better yet, that is is going to be objective. Numbers in football can be very misleading. As I said one game we concede two goals and draw, next game we win with major chances missed by the opponent, 2 months later those are looked at differently because the result was different.

I simply do not like how stubborn Allegri has been. I expected much more tinkering, better subs, better control etc. A lot of it is on the players ofc, and Max maybe can change many things and we still have the same problems, but I cannot know that until he changes something.

 

[Post Ironic]

 

[campionesidd]

You can’t convince a masochist not to flog themselves.

 

[s4tch]

So he has the highest winning percentage out if all our coaches. Hes so lucky.

imagine if he wasn't a fraud

anyway, great thread gents, keep on going

 

[Jäger]

You forgot to put conte stats after matchday 19.Actually we are currently in matchday 22 so you need to add couple of wins to Allegri tally.

Did you think that petty observance helped your argument?

Sarri MD 22 all comps: 24W, 4D, 3L
Pirlo MD 22 all comps: 21W, 7D, 4L
Allegri MD 22 all comps: 17w, 5D, 8L

So actually, by matchday 22 Allegri is actually trailing by a larger margin in comparison to the others than matchday 19. Bless, you thought you did something there moron.

As for Conte matchday 19 all comps:

12W, 8D, 0L (11/12 season)- no european fixtures in this year
19W, 5D, 3L (12/13 season)
20W, 4D, 3L (13/14 season)
18W, 1D, 3L (16/17 season)- no european fixtures in this year (chelsea then won the league)
18W, 5D, 5L (17/18 season)
16W, 5D, 4L (19/20 season)
14W, 8D, 4L (20/21 season)

So honestly I fail to see what you're trying to achieve here with that stupid post. In none of Conte's first 19 matchdays managing top clubs has he ever done as badly as Alzheimers has. You avoided the other stats I noted as well, funnily enough. Nice try though, to you and the idiots who liked your posts.

 

[IlCapitano]

Whatever dude, do you.

I just don't like your approach to conversation where you try to make me sound like a crazy anti-Allegri driven lunatic, when I am anything but and you know it, for having legitimate concerns.

 

[s4tch]

Did you think that petty observance helped your argument?

Sarri MD 22 all comps: 24W, 4D, 3L
Pirlo MD 22 all comps: 21W, 7D, 4L
Allegri MD 22 all comps: 17w, 5D, 8L

So actually, by matchday 22 Allegri is actually trailing by a larger margin in comparison to the others than matchday 19. Bless, you thought you did something there moron.

As for Conte matchday 19 all comps:

12W, 8D, 0L (11/12 season)- no european fixtures in this year
19W, 5D, 3L (12/13 season)
20W, 4D, 3L (13/14 season)
18W, 1D, 3L (16/17 season)- no european fixtures in this year (chelsea then won the league)
18W, 5D, 5L (17/18 season)
16W, 5D, 4L (19/20 season)
14W, 8D, 4L (20/21 season)

So honestly I fail to see what you're trying to achieve here. In none of Conte's first 19 matchdays managing top clubs has he ever done as badly as Alzheimers has. You avoided the other stats I noted as well, funnily enough. Nice try though, to you and the idiots who liked your posts.

compared to last season, we lost ronaldo and also chiesa for the majority of the season. morata is nowhere near as effective as he was. we gained locatelli, still, the overall quality of the team regressed a lot. now tell me with a straight face that the two squads are comparable.

and let's not even talk about previous seasons. '14, '15 squads were the best, this is by far the weakest of the last decade.

also, in your comparison the number of matches doesn't even match

 

[il brutto]

Yes, but I do not agree that some comprehensive data collection is going to show we concede less chances or we are improving. Or better yet, that is is going to be objective. Numbers in football can be very misleading. As I said one game we concede two goals and draw, next game we win with major chances missed by the opponent, 2 months later those are looked at differently because the result was different.

I simply do not like how stubborn Allegri has been. I expected much more tinkering, better subs, better control etc. A lot of it is on the players ofc, and Max maybe can change many things and we still have the same problems, but I cannot know that until he changes something.

But those major chances are also shown in the data.

I do however agree that there can be some limitations with using numerical data to make definite conclusions and that you often need some context to go with the numbers. Anyways, I guess we'll just have to see who gets this one right and whether there is a sustainable improvement in defence (like I think) or whether this is just some lucky streak based on opponent difficulty and their ability to convert chances (like you think).

 

[GiocataGrande]

At the moment, Allegri is in full damage limitation mode due to our incompetent management and is doing well with clear improvements shown. Just imagine what he can achieve when he will be able to work with normal conditions and with his own trusted personel.

My conclusion is that some people will never be satisfied regardless of the results because they will continue to compare our current performances to our best and prime periods , completely ignoring that we are in what you can call a "crisis" at the moment.

This will be a process of one day at a time and I trust noone more than Max to take the right decisions, one step at a time