Massimiliano Allegri (393 Viewers)

[juve123]

Coaching and playing are entirely different jobs requiring entirely different skills and some dumb-ass directors with multimillion salaries still fail to realize this simplest of facts.

You can include arrogant president in that list

 

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[AndreaCristiano]

We declined when Ronaldo came. The management entirely ignored the aging core of the team, and players declining in summer 2018 and left Allegri with an old, tired, burnt out squad.

Our decline had very little to do with Max and everything to do with management fucking up the Ronaldo mercato. And even the one prior. It’s a minor miracle Max had us on 90 pts, and CL quarters past a stronger Atletico side that year, but the youth and athleticism of Ajax was too much for our old team with as many injury problems as it had.

And before you and others bring up revisionist history about post-Cardiff, no, we weren’t in decline 2017-18, nor were we unwatchable. We scored the most goals of the Allegri era that season, 95 points, 86 goals in the league, had a crazy +62 goal differential, smashed Milan 4-0 in Coppa final, and smashed Madrid in CL Qf return leg at the Bernabeu, only getting knocked out on an injury time 50/50 penalty call. That team was damn great and dominant, and Max’s tactics were dead on against Spurs in knocking them out. So perfect that Klopp literally copied them to a T in the CL final the next season to beat Spurs. And aside from Dybala red card and absurd Buffon-Chiellini howler in first leg we likely go through against Madrid. That season was another CL finals/winner worthy team with Max’s tactics.

It was only 2018-19 that we really fell apart, Khedira and Matuidi hitting sharp decline with age, Pjanic and Dybala sucking ass, and Mandzukic burnt out.

Seriously one of the best posts on here in a while. You totally got it right. Max did amazing with the cards he was dealt and since Ronaldo we haven't addressed the rest of the team correctly. Hence why I also don't blame pirlo yes he's green and not 100 percent ready but he doesn't have the tools he needs either

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Long post alert! Decline is not something that you will see overnight, as these players we had were all top quality, and even if they lose a step they are still quite good. Decline comes from lack of planning, not addressing the teams needs, not giving the coach the option to play what hes best at. keeping players forever is never the answer, but also not replacing them properly will make you lose a step.

We hired Allegri in 2014. He was handed a team that was set up by Conte. The defense was the same for 3 years, the midfield as well. Then in 2013 they finally added that ace up front in Tevez. So now you have a great team in all areas and a coach that knows how to use it. Max always said his preferred formation was 4-3 and then something (whether its a 1-2 or 3, depends on tactics and personel), and he found a winning formula with that team because he had players that can execute this philosophy. Tight defense, technical and physical midfield, flair and quickness up front. A team that can defend deep, press high, play possession football, counter attack, just versatile, great and complete.

Then the 1st problems, summer 2015. On paper it looks like a great mercato and we got great results out of it, but with what i said above in mind, not so much. We lost Tevez, we lost Vidal, we lost Pirlo. Now they did a great job at replacing Pirlo by simply making Marchisio the DM and making a great signing in Khedira (the renewal later wasnt so much great), allowing Max to keep his 4-3 part of the team in tact. But upfront we did some mess, instead of replacing the players we lost with similar characteristics, or atleast what the coach needs. Mandzu was a great pick up as well, you replace some of that Vidal and Tevez pressing and grinta with him. But where is the AM instead of Vidal? Ok, you can say we got Cuads, so we could just play 433. But then we sold Coman, and never signed a starting LW. We signed Dybala for 40M, who is a SS (a right sided one, same side as Cuads), we spent 18M on another CF in Zaza. Then we lowkey did the same thing with Llorente as with Tevez, instead of selling to England for money we sent him for free to Spain because he was homesick (just a year later he did move to England and i dont think he played in Spain since, so much for that. Same as Tevez moving to China for ridiculous money, which should have been from us). This is all us losing money for no fucking reason, while not improving at all. This will sound controversial but we never should have gotten Dybala, we had a team built for 433 once Cuads was there, we just needed a LW. Alexis Sanchez is what we needed, perfect Tevez heir and partner for Mandzu, with Cuads in the other side. Or Di Maria. Or someone else, but in that mould. Now THAT is how you replace the atributes you lost, and give the coach the team to play what he wants. Instead we got what we got, forcing Max to adapt and go 352 (with that team, the only and best option). Not what he wanted, not what hes best at, but he made it work.

2016 we lose Pogba. Marchisio is pretty much done and we replace with Pjanic, which is good. We sign Barzagli replacement in Benatia, again great. Dani Alves is a fantastic pick up. But we never replaced Pogba, as we sign a CF with his money. And now Max cant even use his 4-3 part of his prefered formation anymore because he lacks a starting CM. So he again adapts, makes changes to the formation allowing him to field the best players. It becomes a 4-2-3-1, and he still makes it work again.

2017 we get D. Costa and Berna, on paper good pickups. But the reality shows that we have only 2 starting caliber CMs (one of which is slowly on decline), and 4 starting caliber attackers. So again we focus on what is not needed. Matuidi is a good signing in terms of quality, but in terms of profile we needed something else. Or another CM in addition to him. Dani Alves leaves, we get De Sciglio. Solid backup and replacement for on-his-last-legs-Licht, but we lost a starter who we didnt replace. Bonucci left and again no replacement (Benatia was there but he was supposed to succeed Barza, who was done also by then). And at this point the decline was in full swing, because even if we were good on paper and had a great coach who made it work, we kept neglecting what was needed to be addressed and what our coach excells at, so we were in deep shit even if results showed otherwise. Max fooled poor Ronaldo as well, guy thought we are a great team and that he will have a great time winning the league every year comfortably, and compete for CL. In reality it was a team that needed to be rebuilt, handed to a guy that doesent know how to rebuild it.

Add to that when max told them he needed to rebuild and Nedved started to plot to remove him. All the while max was right and that blonde haired bimbo was wrong

 

[DAiDEViL]

Coaching and playing are entirely different jobs requiring entirely different skills and some dumb-ass directors with multimillion salaries still fail to realize this simplest of facts.

Even Tici wanted him gone if we were to believe rumors. It's AA and his Dog Nedved who can't let go it seems.

 

[Gigiventus]

I agree. It’s the same with Pirlo. Amazing player, one of the most intelligent players I’ve ever seen. As a coach? Not so much.

Nothing similar to Pirlo. Gattuso is a real coach. At Milan he placed 1 pooint away from CL qualification. Won the coppa and qualified Napoli to the CL in one and a half seasons with Napoli, already notable.

 

[JuventinMalti]

Nothing similar to Pirlo. Gattuso is a real coach. At Milan he placed 1 pooint away from CL qualification. Won the coppa and qualified Napoli to the CL in one and a half seasons with Napoli, already notable.

Winning Coppa Italia and being very very close to CL qualification are two things that Pirlo could very well achieve in a matter of days. Just sayin'.

 

[DAiDEViL]

Nothing similar to Pirlo. Gattuso is a real coach. At Milan he placed 1 pooint away from CL qualification. Won the coppa and qualified Napoli to the CL in one and a half seasons with Napoli, already notable.

What is notable about qualifying Napoli to the CL?

 

[Gigiventus]

Winning Coppa Italia and being very very close to CL qualification are two things that Pirlo could very well achieve in a matter of days. Just sayin'.

Are comparing our squad to Napoli's?

different levels

Pirlo would be in midtable at Napoli

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[campionesidd]

Nothing similar to Pirlo. Gattuso is a real coach. At Milan he placed 1 pooint away from CL qualification. Won the coppa and qualified Napoli to the CL in one and a half seasons with Napoli, already notable.

Qualifying for the CL with Napoli is no achievement at all. They finished either 2nd or 3rd in the league in almost all seasons since Sarri took over in 2015. The only season when they didn’t finish in the top 4 was last year- when Gattuso was managing them.
By the way, they still haven’t qualified for the CL this year.

 

[Xperd]

When in comparison to Pirlo, it obviously is 'notable'. Many mediocre coaches would have notable achievements in comparison.

There is nothing notable about having the 3rd best squad in Italy and barely scraping CL spots and winning Coppa.

Likes of Benitez and Mazzarri have been there, done that years ago.

As I said, classic case of normalizing mediocrity all because we have a pseudo coach right now.

 

[Gigiventus]

The tunnel vision here...

The post I responded to was implying that Pirlo and Gattuso are the same in this regard, which is nonsense. Pirlo is much worse, it's not that Gattuso is breaking any records, it's simply that he is an actual coach.

 

[rainhard]

When in comparison to Pirlo, it obviously is 'notable'. Many mediocre coaches would have notable achievements in comparison.

There is nothing notable about having the 3rd best squad in Italy and barely scraping CL spots and winning Coppa.

Likes of Benitez and Mazzarri have been there, done that years ago.

As I said, a classic case of normalizing mediocrity all because we have a pseudo coach right now.

Looking for that logic, for a squad that total wages just slightly over CR7
Atalanta gets the UCL spot 3 years in a row. Be the club that top in the number of goals scored

So ideally if available, Gasperini is the best choice in Italy. Because Allegri is likely to go to Madrid
From abroad Zidane is obviously the best coach available

 

[Xperd]

Maybe if Pirlo has a couple more seasons under his belt, he'd probably be able catch up to Gattuso's notable (and mediocre) coaching career

Jus' sayin.

 

[zizinho]

About Gattuso, both his Serie A jobs he took over in the middle of the season. And both times the teams improved. At Milan:

6-2-6 before him, 12-8-4 after he took over. Points per game show the improvement they had. Also reached a Coppa final vs us. Then the following season was almost in CL (Atalanta finished one point ahead, but they played us in round 37 where they got a draw, and we were on holidays since March. Milan had the better h2h and that draw got Atalanta in CL. Time to return the favor?). At Napoli:

5-6-5 before him, 13-2-7 with him. Again ppg show the improvement. And managed to win Coppa this time vs sorri. And in the second season again has them on brink of CL qualification (I see a pattern here)

If you want to find something against him it's probably Europe where he hasn't done anything notable. Looks like he's more of a league coach where he gets the team to play to their level and collect points vs minnows, and not suited for Europe where he needs to beat a better/equal team in 2 games. Like someone said, poor man's Conte probably the best description.

Right man for us? Depends on what your perception of us at the moment is and what you expect us to be next season

 

[JuventinMalti]

Are comparing our squad to Napoli's?

different levels

Pirlo would be in midtable at Napoli

- - - Updated - - -

Not at all. Mine was merely a light hearted dig at the 'achievements' you chose to mention to distinguish Gattuso from Pirlo, which Pirlo is close enough to achieve. That comes with an assumption of all other things being equal (which obviously are not) . Hence the 'just sayin' at the end of my post. It was the rhetoric I was poking at, not the actual point.

 

[campionesidd]

About Gattuso, both his Serie A jobs he took over in the middle of the season. And both times the teams improved. At Milan:

6-2-6 before him, 12-8-4 after he took over. Points per game show the improvement they had. Also reached a Coppa final vs us. Then the following season was almost in CL (Atalanta finished one point ahead, but they played us in round 37 where they got a draw, and we were on holidays since March. Milan had the better h2h and that draw got Atalanta in CL. Time to return the favor?). At Napoli:

5-6-5 before him, 13-2-7 with him. Again ppg show the improvement. And managed to win Coppa this time vs sorri. And in the second season again has them on brink of CL qualification (I see a pattern here)

If you want to find something against him it's probably Europe where he hasn't done anything notable. Looks like he's more of a league coach where he gets the team to play to their level and collect points vs minnows, and not suited for Europe where he needs to beat a better/equal team in 2 games. Like someone said, poor man's Conte probably the best description.

Right man for us? Depends on what your perception of us at the moment is and what you expect us to be next season

almost all teams see a new manager bump when a coach is replaced mid-season.

 

[zizinho]

almost all teams see a new manager bump when a coach is replaced mid-season.

What about the following seasons?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

What about the following seasons?

They don't want to acknowledge at all that Gattuso is actually becoming a quality coach and he's actually making serious strides. Juventuz loves the big names. They don't want a Gasperini or Gattuso here.

 

[X Æ A-12]

They don't want to acknowledge at all that Gattuso is actually becoming a quality coach and he's actually making serious strides. Juventuz loves the big names. They don't want a Gasperini or Gattuso here.

I think its understandable why folks here might be tired of Italian coaches. Its quite clear that Italian football is outdated and so are many of the coaches. Not sure how many seasons of Italian clubs failing in Europe it will take for them to realize this

Only Italian I would want is Allegri or maybe Inzaghi.

 

[Post Ironic]

They don't want to acknowledge at all that Gattuso is actually becoming a quality coach and he's actually making serious strides. Juventuz loves the big names. They don't want a Gasperini or Gattuso here.

Dude. Gattuso is nowhere near Gasperini level yet, and I’m not that big a fan of Gasperini, or at least not as a coach for Juve, I’d prefer someone younger, instead of another pensioner.

Inzaghi is the only young Italian coach I’d want us to consider at the moment. Gattuso gotta show more before I start thinking he’s worth a look.