Massimiliano Allegri (391 Viewers)

[MikeM]

The solution to our CM conundrum is not to switch to formations that require more CMs and ask more from them.

The 4-3-1-2 is not realistic even with good CMs. It was good only with Pogba and Vidal which are basically the archetype of what you want in that system from your CMs. Is Witsel going to make a 4-3-1-2 work? He's not.

Instead of experimenting with Dybala as a CAM behind two #9s, he should be experimenting with him as an inside RW. It makes everything easier. Higuain is fine by himself in the centre. Pjanic is fine as a CAM. Our CMs like Marchisio, Lemina, Khedira and Sturaro are all better as holding mids (Marchisio is fine either way though).

I mean, is the solution really the 4-3-1-2 where Cuadrado has nowhere to play and you are replacing him with vastly inferior players like Sturaro? Right now Marotta is trying to find another Vidal when Allegri could try a wing based formation and make everyone's life easier. I'm convinced Cuadrado on the left and Dybala on the right is an upgrade straight away. But then your objectives in the market become easier because you are looking for a LW and not a top CM which is absolutely required for the 4-3-1-2 or 3-5-2, maybe even TWO of them!

 

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[LiquidPLP]

The solution to our CM conundrum is not to switch to formations that require more CMs and ask more from them.

The 4-3-1-2 is not realistic even with good CMs. It was good only with Pogba and Vidal which are basically the archetype of what you want in that system from your CMs. Is Witsel going to make a 4-3-1-2 work? He's not.

Instead of experimenting with Dybala as a CAM behind two #9s, he should be experimenting with him as an inside RW. It makes everything easier. Higuain is fine by himself in the centre. Pjanic is fine as a CAM. Our CMs like Marchisio, Lemina, Khedira and Sturaro are all better as holding mids (Marchisio is fine either way though).

I mean, is the solution really the 4-3-1-2 where Cuadrado has nowhere to play and you are replacing him with vastly inferior players like Sturaro? Right now Marotta is trying to find another Vidal when Allegri could try a wing based formation and make everyone's life easier. I'm convinced Cuadrado on the left and Dybala on the right is an upgrade straight away. But then your objectives in the market become easier because you are looking for a LW and not a top CM which is absolutely required for the 4-3-1-2 or 3-5-2, maybe even TWO of them!

 

[dolph]

The solution to our CM conundrum is not to switch to formations that require more CMs and ask more from them.

The 4-3-1-2 is not realistic even with good CMs. It was good only with Pogba and Vidal which are basically the archetype of what you want in that system from your CMs. Is Witsel going to make a 4-3-1-2 work? He's not.

Instead of experimenting with Dybala as a CAM behind two #9s, he should be experimenting with him as an inside RW. It makes everything easier. Higuain is fine by himself in the centre. Pjanic is fine as a CAM. Our CMs like Marchisio, Lemina, Khedira and Sturaro are all better as holding mids (Marchisio is fine either way though).

I mean, is the solution really the 4-3-1-2 where Cuadrado has nowhere to play and you are replacing him with vastly inferior players like Sturaro? Right now Marotta is trying to find another Vidal when Allegri could try a wing based formation and make everyone's life easier. I'm convinced Cuadrado on the left and Dybala on the right is an upgrade straight away. But then your objectives in the market become easier because you are looking for a LW and not a top CM which is absolutely required for the 4-3-1-2 or 3-5-2, maybe even TWO of them!

Fantastic post. Watching Khedira and Sturaro trying to be the creative outlets to this team gives me cancer. Give them roles they can handle and excel in. Khedira fx would be really good as a holding mid next to Marchisio. Even the mids we are linked to like Witsel and NZonzi are better as holding mids, and no mid we could possible get is anywhere Bear as good as Pogba, Vidal or Pirlo. We have loads of good offensive players who are able to create, either through their speed and one on one skills or through their vision. Unfortunately most of them are benched all the time (or injured to be fair). Just play a formation that gives these players freedom to create, and give our mids more defensive duties, which they can handle. If you call it a 4-3-3, 3-4-3, 4-2-3-1 or whatever does not matter. Just stop Sturaro and Khedira from trying to play like Vidal and Pogba, and get some of the creative players like Dybala, Pjanic, Pjaca, Cuadrado, Alex Sandro, Dani Alves on the pitch at the same time.

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IMO the problem is that Allegri/management aren't willing to adapt - I mean we play Sturaro in Pogba role and then we wonder why we lose to Milan

We're no longer built to play 352/4312 - both formations rely on superiority of midfield which is not the case for us anymore. If your midfield gets dominated by Kucka - Locatelli - Bertolacci then that says it all. From our WC MVPP the only one left is Marchisio who isn't himself since the injury.

We have new players, who are top class but they struggle to adapt to our way of playing. I mean Higuain and Pjanic aren't used to our style nor formations and the struggle big time. I think it would be wiser to move towards what they're used to if we want to build our team on them. Let's stop giving players responsibilities they're not capable of handling. 4312 relies on fullbacks to provide something offensively - at least some decent crossing but Evra and Licht aren't capable of that. They don't have the engine for constant running anymore. It makes the formation so narrow that your team has to attack through the middle so you're too predictable to pull something off. 352 isn't any different with those two.

It's true that injuries to Dybala and Pjaca $#@!ed us big time, that's why I hope we land some more players with their characteristics, like Berardi etc. I think we're approaching the time for a switch to some 442/4231/433 formation which would unload our midfield from some responsibilities because this formation isn't capable of providing the goods it used to.

It has to be said it's great we still manage to win in CL and the league with so dysfunctional team but it cannot continue like this. We need major improvements to our game but also to the squad (but no revolution!).

👍
Instead of Berardi lets get James. Otherwise great post.

 

[zizinho]

Come on guys, Cuadrado LW? Dybala RW? Why waste 2 of your most dangerous on the ball players by playing them in roles you can't get the most out of them?

 

[MikeM]

Come on guys, Cuadrado LW? Dybala RW? Why waste 2 of your most dangerous on the ball players by playing them in roles you can't get the most out of them?

Cuadrado doesn't even play right now!

But I did also suggest buying a LW. It doesn't have to be Cuadrado at LW.

But I mean, right now we are watching Sturaro and Khedira give their best Pogba and Vidal imitations and it's not working that well.

 

[zizinho]

But Dybala as a RW is also what I hate to see. He needs to stay more centrally and closer to the goal. Hes our best offensive player and needs to have the team built around him

 

[MikeM]

But Dybala as a RW is also what I hate to see. He needs to stay more centrally and closer to the goal. Hes our best offensive player and needs to have the team built around him

Well there are a lot of great players who have succeeded in such a scenario. Ronaldo and Messi right off the bat. Reus, Robben, Ribery, pre-Conte Hazard. You can make quite a list. There is also Bale, Sanchez, Neymar. Even Muller has played RW. Some with better physicality and work rate than Dybala, I must admit, but some with worse to be honest.

I don't think it makes more sense for Allegri to try him as a CAM behind two strikers. We have nothing defensively in that scenario. If Dybala were to play CAM properly behind Higuain and Mandzukic then he'd probably end up further from goal then he would as a RW.

I agree the optimal scenario is for him to play SS beside Higuain but then we'd need to find a couple Vidals lying around somewhere. And probably a new RWB.

We can go on pretending that Sturaro is Pogba but that just leads to Dybala coming deeper and deeper to collect the ball as it is.

 

[rakib567]

Ive been crying for 433 with cuadrado higuain and dybala. All this bs about dybala being out of position is non sense because dybala likes to drift on the right Anyway. The rw role rould moreover be a free role similar to hazard in the 343 or messi 433 barca. If it works for barca then it will surely work for us.

 

[Afghan_juventus]

Ive been crying for 433 with cuadrado higuain and dybala. All this bs about dybala being out of position is non sense because dybala likes to drift on the right Anyway. The rw role rould moreover be a free role similar to hazard in the 343 or messi 433 barca. If it works for barca then it will surely work for us.

has cuadringo ever looked good on the left? Id prefer Pjaca Higgy Dybala

 

[rndmlgnd]

Can anyone draw a stat showing how many total injuries we had under Conte and how many we have under Allegri?

 

[Hydde]

But Dybala as a RW is also what I hate to see. He needs to stay more centrally and closer to the goal. Hes our best offensive player and needs to have the team built around him

Howcome?

Him ´playing as RW doesnt mean he will behuggin the line like lichteiner. He will most likely continue roamign and cutting in to shoot with his left foot.

I dnot know why u think he will turn to shid all of a suddem if deployed on a 3 man line. He is no Del Piero and doesnt need to be treated as such. He has different characteristics and he has a lethal left foot which can be used as a RW.

We need to develop a line of Pjaca-Higuain SDybala...and you will see how we will start winning.

 

[Afghan_juventus]

Howcome?

Him ´playing as RW doesnt mean he will behuggin the line like lichteiner. He will most likely continue roamign and cutting in to shoot with his left foot.

I dnot know why u think he will turn to shid all of a suddem if deployed on a 3 man line. He is no Del Piero and doesnt need to be treated as such. He has different characteristics and he has a lethal left foot which can be used as a RW.

We need to develop a line of Pjaca-Higuain SDybala...and you will see how we will start winning.

im a late Juventino (only from 2011). How did Del Piero turn to shid after being deployed on the left? I saw the game vs Real in 2013 and he looked like he fit perfectly.

Edit: also I agree with ur post.

 

[DUKAC]

Can anyone draw a stat showing how many total injuries we had under Conte and how many we have under Allegri?

Do not even look at that statistics.It would be something like 10:1 more injuries under Allegri. Fucking "Milan Lab" .

 

[il brutto]

http://www.espnfc.com/blog/espn-fc-united/68/post/3025610/real-madrid-claim-power-rankings-top-spot-ahead-of-chelsea

 

[zizinho]

Well there are a lot of great players who have succeeded in such a scenario. Ronaldo and Messi right off the bat. Reus, Robben, Ribery, pre-Conte Hazard. You can make quite a list. There is also Bale, Sanchez, Neymar. Even Muller has played RW. Some with better physicality and work rate than Dybala, I must admit, but some with worse to be honest.

I don't think it makes more sense for Allegri to try him as a CAM behind two strikers. We have nothing defensively in that scenario. If Dybala were to play CAM properly behind Higuain and Mandzukic then he'd probably end up further from goal then he would as a RW.

I agree the optimal scenario is for him to play SS beside Higuain but then we'd need to find a couple Vidals lying around somewhere. And probably a new RWB.

We can go on pretending that Sturaro is Pogba but that just leads to Dybala coming deeper and deeper to collect the ball as it is.

Most of those players are actual wingers tho, Messi at a younger age was a winger too until he became a false nine under Pep. Dybala never was a winger, hes a classic SS and playing him wide would mean you are pushing him away from his true position and asking him to put in extra unnecessary work. Have you asked yourself why Max never done it till now? Even with Tevez, whos a workrate monster, we never played a 433 with him wide, only with Morata and Coman/Cuadrado. These guys can beat their man with pace and speed and are putting in some very good defensive work. Dybala? He would be shut down easier than you think as a RW. Hes great when going inside with his stronger left foot, but what about going right? His right foot is his weak spot ( @DAiDEViL) so hed have to stop abd turn left again at some point. Close him the lane to go inside and you pretty much shut him down. His strengths are passing, playmaking, scoring and dribbling in tight spaces. Put him wide and you take away all of that from him, and you get a pretty ineffective not very strong defensively RW out of the guy that should be carrying your offense. And yes, AM is better because while you put him further away from the goal and decrease his scoring threat, its still the position you get the most out of him, after SS and CF

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Howcome?

Him ´playing as RW doesnt mean he will behuggin the line like lichteiner. He will most likely continue roamign and cutting in to shoot with his left foot.

I dnot know why u think he will turn to shid all of a suddem if deployed on a 3 man line. He is no Del Piero and doesnt need to be treated as such. He has different characteristics and he has a lethal left foot which can be used as a RW.

We need to develop a line of Pjaca-Higuain SDybala...and you will see how we will start winning.

AS has a fantastic left foot, lets try him as a RW

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Ive been crying for 433 with cuadrado higuain and dybala. All this bs about dybala being out of position is non sense because dybala likes to drift on the right Anyway. The rw role rould moreover be a free role similar to hazard in the 343 or messi 433 barca. If it works for barca then it will surely work for us.

Also rakib agreed with you, i think I don't have to say no more

 

[PedroFlu]

I disagree. Pjanic is not fine as an AM. He's fine on the bench, honestly.

And I agree with Zizinho. Absolutely. Dybala cant start from the RW prinarily. Bauza tried this on Argentina. He just doesnt fit. Hes an SS/AM/trequartista. He plays through the middle.

But MikeM otherwise is right. Best formation is the one which requires 2 holding CMS: 4231. But only with Pjaca as the Lw, Dybala trequartista and Cuadrado RW. Making it work should be the priority.

It all depends on Pjaca.

While it doesnt happen, switch back to 352. Sandro and Cuadrado will provide offense.

End the Mandzukic experiment. Bench him and Pjanic. Give more opportunities to Lemina.

4312 indeed is the wrong way to go. Our mids are shit and you mitigate this only reducing their number and roles.

Also, if Pjanic hás a 2nd semester like the first, thats a bad flop. Could easily fetch 30m for him. Sell his ass and move on.

For the 4312 to work, wed need 2 CMS and an AM. Witsel is not one of them. We are far and away.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Yeah, you are right

 

[Hust]

IMO the problem is that Allegri/management aren't willing to adapt - I mean we play Sturaro in Pogba role and then we wonder why we lose to Milan

We're no longer built to play 352/4312 - both formations rely on superiority of midfield which is not the case for us anymore. If your midfield gets dominated by Kucka - Locatelli - Bertolacci then that says it all. From our WC MVPP the only one left is Marchisio who isn't himself since the injury.

We have new players, who are top class but they struggle to adapt to our way of playing. I mean Higuain and Pjanic aren't used to our style nor formations and the struggle big time. I think it would be wiser to move towards what they're used to if we want to build our team on them. Let's stop giving players responsibilities they're not capable of handling. 4312 relies on fullbacks to provide something offensively - at least some decent crossing but Evra and Licht aren't capable of that. They don't have the engine for constant running anymore. It makes the formation so narrow that your team has to attack through the middle so you're too predictable to pull something off. 352 isn't any different with those two.

It's true that injuries to Dybala and Pjaca fucked us big time, that's why I hope we land some more players with their characteristics, like Berardi etc. I think we're approaching the time for a switch to some 442/4231/433 formation which would unload our midfield from some responsibilities because this formation isn't capable of providing the goods it used to.

It has to be said it's great we still manage to win in CL and the league with so dysfunctional team but it cannot continue like this. We need major improvements to our game but also to the squad (but no revolution!).

Losing both Alves & Sandro to injury pretty much kills our ability to play a 352. Even with Cuadrado & Evra its unbalanced with one being more defensive and the other more offensive so its lopsided. I'd love to see a 433 or 4231:

Buffon
Licht-Bonucci-Chiellini-Sandro
Khedira-Lemina-Marchisio
Dybala-Higuain-Pjaca


Buffon
Licht-Bonucci-Chiellini-Sandro
Lemina-Marchisio
Dybala-Pjanic-Pjaca
Higuain​

Gotta shake things up a bit, it might be time to retire the 352. A 4231 wouldn't leave Pjanic isolated and Dybala dropping back could receive the ball more often. We are one big midfield signing away from having a solid team front to back. Actually, one CM and one RB and we are set. Hopefully we can sign an excellent CM this winter the help close the gaps and go for that WC mid this summer.

 

[zizinho]

we will continue with the 352/4312 for now for sure

CB CB CB
Cuadrado Sami Marchisio Pjanic Evra
Higgy Manbro/Dybi

Licht CB CB Evra
Sami Marchisio Stu
Pjanic/Dybi
Higgy Manbro/Dybi
​

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442 could also be interesting

Licht CB CB Evra
Cuadrado Sami Marchisio Pjaca/Stu
Higgy Manbro/Dybi​

maybe when Pjaca is back we will try it but wont bet on it

 

[Juventino★★★]

whatever the tactics he will use... having Higuain-Dybala and struggling to score is a huge failure.

when you have good strikers you don't really need that much build up play, many coaches find way to supply them... but the problem he still think he have Pirlo-Vidal-Pogba in Khedira-Pjanic-Sturaro. it's impossible to play possession patient build up with them. once he forget about this idea and start having a plan depending on the players he have then everything will start to work... otherwise i think we are in for long struggle throughout the season.